American Yeshivish

keym

Thu, May 23 2019, 10:00 am

Chayalle wrote:

Said 19 year old needs a crash course in middos and derech eretz. I'll skip for my daughters, thank you very much.

Not counting?

What on earth are they teaching men in yeshivos these days if they can act like this?

This is not the world I come from.

It's an attitude of gaiva and selfishness. The same attitude that makes a boy think he deserves 2-3k a month for years on end. Certain yeshivos are known to be more into the "demanding support" thing.
It's yeshivos that insist on mandatory erev shabbos, motzei shabbos, bein hazmanim seder.
It's the yeshivos that have an outright competition who could miss the least, and even be in yeshiva extra when their wives have babies.
Not for my daughter either.

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, May 23 2019, 11:00 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

I’m not a teacher but I work at public schools. Is this your first year teaching? I hear the first year is the hardest. At least you have the summer off soon and if you go back next year I hope it goes better.

From what I heard, being a teacher is the hardest, there's more prep, more classroom management, and more stress regarding ratings in the hands of someone in the building who is subjective. How can you compare that to a guidance counselor who has no prep and no classroom management for 30 kids and a different rating system?? Or an ot, pt, speech, literacy coach, consultant, psychologist...etc.. Many of these ppl have little to no prep and if they are working with students, they are working very small groups which is very different than 30 kids. And, many times their supervisors are not even in the same building so they come rarely....

I'm curious what you work as, but the person I know who is a public school teacher told me that some ppl have it easy with different titles depending on....but the teachers get the focus of the stress of the demands with principals and coaches demanding a lot of paperwork/planning / and grading.

Even in Jewish schools, there can be problems with discipline bec schools have no consequences but there's still a lot of prep and little pay. From what I've heard, in public school guidance counselors...etc dont have it as bad as the teachers.

amother

Pewter

Thu, May 23 2019, 11:58 am

Chayalle wrote:

I love this. I think I grew up on this ideal - it's probably what lead me to the Kollel life - my father was shocked (that's not even a strong enough word) when I told him I want to marry a learning boy, where on earth did I get that from? I was raised on the principles of the husband being the breadwinner. And I told him - from you.

Because my father never left learning. He learned with my brothers every day, and then headed right out to learn at night. He had a steady Chavrusah all the years I was growing up - every night, and Sundays, and Shabbos, he was always learning. If we went to the park, he had a Sefer in his pocket. In the emergency room when I injured my foot and we waited forever because there was an accident that had just come in - my father had a Sefer prepared. That's why when he retired and went back to learning, the transition was not difficult - because he had never left.

Also, once we kids were a little bigger and he wasn't being woken up at night from crying babies, he learned Daf Yomi every morning. Each cycle was new and more - like, after my brother got married and he no longer had sons to learn with at home (though he still learns with my brothers on the phone, each one once a week - they all live in E"Y) he added Tosfos and other commentaries to his Daf cycle. At the Siyum Hashas, I stand in the womens' section and I say Mazel Tov Ta. Learning Torah is his life. (Last time I made him a surprise Shalosh Seudos, and two of my sisters and their families walked over.) On top of this, last year for the Yartzeit of my mother A"H he made a siyum on Yerushalmi.

I think my father learns more than the average Kollel man, he has kept up all the years. He just took a break to support his family.

I guess that's why I don't even get the looking down thing. Are there people out there who would look down on my father? I dare them to get into a learning conversation with him. Then we'll talk.

Tonight is my father's yahrtzeit, a"h. He went to work early (though he got married late and learned full time till then straight after high school) because my brother was born before their first anniversary and my mother a"h started showing early.
Chayalle, you are describing my father. He also wrote several sefarim on a certain area of halacha (would rather not say which) since leaving kollel and they are very well regarded.

baltomom

Thu, May 23 2019, 12:09 pm

OP, you should not feel like a second class citizen! You can find a community to live in with people who are like you, living a Torah im Derech Eretz lifestyle--engaged with the world, with Torah shaping your values, attitudes, and decisions--even though your DH is not in kollel. I remember a seminary friend, a truly growing girl, whose husband started professional school when they got married (even though they both wanted him to be in kollel) due to parental pressure to finish his education first, telling me how other young marrieds looked down upon her because her DH wasn't learning. I was so happy to start out married life in Baltimore, where my DH and many other young men could be (and be viewed as) true bnei Torah even though they were in professional school. We never felt looked down upon.

And yes, I am so happy that my DH has the ability to shoulder most of the burden of parnassah, enabling me to devote most of my energies to the chinuch of our children. You will be too!

yerushamama

Thu, May 23 2019, 12:49 pm

keym wrote:

It's yeshivos that insist on mandatory erev shabbos, motzei shabbos, bein hazmanim seder.
It's the yeshivos that have an outright competition who could miss the least, and even be in yeshiva extra when their wives have babies.
Not for my daughter either.

There are yeshivas that assume that not every avreich is doing something worthwhile at these times. Many will tell an avreich whose wife needs him to skip these sedarim.

I remember speaking to one woman whose husband's Rosh Kollel WOULD NOT ALLOW a new father to return for afternoon seder if there were young kids at home! For at least the first month the wife and new baby were home (after Beit Hachlama, time at her mother's house...) the father's place was considered to be at home helping out!

keym

Thu, May 23 2019, 12:57 pm

yerushamama wrote:

You know, I heard that before. The rosh yeshiva or rosh Kollel pays lip service to saying stay home and help.
But having seder erev shabbos (after 2pm) created a culture of expectations. The wife feels bad asking. She feels less than for not managing.
It would be more impressive to me if the rosh yeshiva said straight out every man must help. The serious man will learn on line at the bank, will learn at the park, or listen to a shirt while washing the floor.
Why even create a culture that men and women feel unrealistic pressure.

amother

Thu, May 23 2019, 2:04 pm

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

100%. I'm not saying that school guidance counselors have an easy job -- from what I see, it's really hard. However, it's a different type of stress. The classroom management coupled with being at the mercy of your admin's ratings is really hard.

I was recently summoned to a disciplinary meeting because I've taken 9 days off from work this year (I'm entitled to 10). I have excuses for many of those, but they didn't care. I didn't end up being disciplined, but still, I feel really harassed.

My mother is an OT in public school. She admits that my job is 100 times harder than hers. My aunt is a librarian in public school - same thing.

In Bais Yaakov, it is implicit that students need to follow rules or there will be consequences. In public school, you can't enforce anything. (A student who punched another one and landed him in the hospital was suspended for 5 days; another student who dispensed weed was suspended for a year. Just to show what the priorities are.)

Anyway, I'm discovering that I don't have what it takes to teach this generation of students. I can interact with them well one-on-one, but not stand in front of 30+ of them (especially when half of them don't speak English).

Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Wheat

Thu, May 23 2019, 2:21 pm

Chayalle wrote:

My father is similar to yours.. he's still working, but we all know that he can't wait for when he can retire and sit and learn all day. He keeps a gemarah in his car, and learns every night and every morning, keeps up with the daf...

If my husband would be like him, I wouldn't be as upset when he left learning. But he's not. My husband learns (no chavrusa) almost every night. He doesn't fall asleep over his gemara on Friday nights, he shmoozes and then goes to sleep. He doesn't keep a gemara with him all the time... in fact, he doesn't even learn gemara when he does learn! He usually learns halacha of the YT that's coming up, or something like that.
He doesn't even say Torah by the Shabbos table, and that's with me asking him every single week if he has something to say on the parsha, maybe one out of five times he will. And it'll be about 2 sentences. When we go away for Shabbos, he doesn't contribute either.
He's not ambitious, never made a siyum, doesn't have a set time to learn like a shiur or a chavrusa... so it's easier to skip a day. I wish he would! Anything I can do? Probably not...

And that's why I don't like that my teachers all made it seem like it's up to me. It's not! If I would be a man, I'd be learning... I love learning! And my husband would likely make a better mother than me Smile

But as much as I tried nagging, ignoring, hinting, saying something, not saying something... Nothing will change the fact that he is his own person and in charge of his own life. All I can do is daven for him. Which I do...

Not sure why I just vented like this. I never said any of this to anyone... anyway...

amother

Jetblack

Thu, May 23 2019, 2:56 pm

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

I work in one of the therapies. And it's a great job, I'm not complaining at all. I am friendly with some of the teachers at my schools and they are happy so I know it is possible. But I am sure it's not easy.

naturalmom5

Thu, May 23 2019, 2:57 pm

smileforamile wrote:

I never met Rebbetzin Braunstein, although I've heard a lot about her from my high school. I wonder how she would speak if she were alive today. It seems to me that many of the rebbetzins of 20 years ago have changed their tune towards the more extreme.

My mother went to the same high school as I did. She never heard half the things I did. And I never heard the same things as they told my sister who's 4 grades below me. And she never heard some of the idiocy that is being spouted now, 4 years later. ("Obedience looks like this..." is a chant of one of the teachers in the school.)

Case in point R A C Feur
My husband heard him speak in Miami in 1990
He spoke about the Gra and Metz and how overslept for Ten minutes and the whole town was distraught
Then tied it into the new York times science section and Hubble telescope lens and Astro physics
When he spoke in Lakewood last year and the year before he spoke in yiddish and sounded like he grew up in Williamsburg

leah233

Thu, May 23 2019, 3:09 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

This doesn't seem connected to the passage of time but rather consciousness of who he is speaking to.

In Miami many people will respect a rabbi more because he can tie in The New York times science section and Hubble telescope lens and Astro physics. In Lakewood most people wouldn't.

In Lakewood many people would appreciate a speech more if the idioms, colloquiums and expressions that are unique to Yiddish are being used. In Miami most people wouldn't.

Chayalle

Thu, May 23 2019, 3:20 pm

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

I don't think the yeshivos today are turning out alot of men like my father.

Still - of the working men I know - I want to tell you that if your husband goes out to work every night - THAT IS TREMENDOUS. Do you know how hard it is to go out and learn after a day at work? As a wife, I can't tell you if I'd make a very good guy. Seriously. When I'm tired at night I crash, and no one blames me if I leave a basket of laundry or the dishes for tomorrow, no one starts questioning my dedication to Torah and Mitzvos for it. It's huge that your husband does that.

What you can do is, appreciate that. Tell him how much you value that he goes out to learn at night.

I once heard a tape from R' Avigdor Miller in which a man asked - if a man has a limited amount of time to learn, what should he learn? And Rabbi MIller answered - ma shelibo chofetz. He should learn what interests him, and that will lead him to more learning. So if your husband is inclined to learn practical Halacha - that's great! And may it be a springboard for him to more learning, B"EH when he has more Koach.

So what you can do is daven, and celebrate his successes.

amother

Denim

Thu, May 23 2019, 4:14 pm

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

My father would be in his late 80s. It matches many of his classmates and friends. If they didn't all write sefarim they became roshei yeshiva, rabbanim, businessmen who still learned seriously and were tremendous talmidei chachamim

Learning every night after work and/or before work in the AM - and my father often did it home - is tremendous. No question.

Hey, he sounds just like my FIL! And the same age too. They probably all learned in the same yeshivah- the very frum world was very small in those days.

Just so you know people like your father and my FIL were the minority even then. How big do you think Torah Vdaas was in those days? How many yeshivos were there altogether? It was a minority even then. To put it into perspective, none of the boys my FIL went to elementary school remained frum.