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amother
OP
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 Fri, May 24 2019, 9:23 am
| Mommyg8 wrote: | Totally disagree. There's a huge difference between an office job and learning in kollel. First - ideally a person should be able to take off from work for a family emergency - it's just that some employers are more flexible than others. It's not an ideal- something to aspire to.
Second, it the husband is in kollel the wife is likely bearing the brunt of the parnasah responsibility and she is likely overwhelmed as it is. The least he can do is make things a little easier for her.
Third, part of what makes kollel work is that it's flexible. If the wife works at an inflexible full time job, for example, the only way it works is that the husbands schedule is more flexible. He may need to take off some time for childcare, for example. This is how the system actually works.
Fourth, as my husband once said, when they pay me a real salary I'll treat it as a real job. Men who are in kollel have hopefully chosen this route on their own because they want to learn, and they're not little babies who need to give a din vcheshbon for every minute of their time. They're not in school that they need to follow a schedule. They're adults who can make their own decisions as to how to spend their time.
My husband actually had a chavrusah who would take off here and there to take his wife for chemo treatments (this happens to be a very choshuva man who is still learning at 70). My husband knew the set up going in, this was part of their arrangement. Hopefully any compassionare employer would allow this as well. |
This came out better from you than me, because I'd probably be bashed for it.
DH came with me to my doctor's appointments because I was terrified of there ch'v being something wrong, and then I would need to face it alone. I would quake in my boots anytime he couldn't make it. This became even worse with my second pregnancy after I had postpartum preeclampsia with my first.
Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Saddlebrown
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Fri, May 24 2019, 11:56 am
| Mommyg8 wrote: | Totally disagree. There's a huge difference between an office job and learning in kollel. First - ideally a person should be able to take off from work for a family emergency - it's just that some employers are more flexible than others. It's not an ideal- something to aspire to.
Second, it the husband is in kollel the wife is likely bearing the brunt of the parnasah responsibility and she is likely overwhelmed as it is. The least he can do is make things a little easier for her.
Third, part of what makes kollel work is that it's flexible. If the wife works at an inflexible full time job, for example, the only way it works is that the husbands schedule is more flexible. He may need to take off some time for childcare, for example. This is how the system actually works.
Fourth, as my husband once said, when they pay me a real salary I'll treat it as a real job. Men who are in kollel have hopefully chosen this route on their own because they want to learn, and they're not little babies who need to give a din vcheshbon for every minute of their time. They're not in school that they need to follow a schedule. They're adults who can make their own decisions as to how to spend their time.
My husband actually had a chavrusah who would take off here and there to take his wife for chemo treatments (this happens to be a very choshuva man who is still learning at 70). My husband knew the set up going in, this was part of their arrangement. Hopefully any compassionare employer would allow this as well. |
Actually, many of your points do not totally disagree with me at all. Some of them are in line with what I said.
Your first point regarding a family emergency, agreed. Like I said, there are circumstances where people would be taking off of work for that. But they just have to be honest with themselves that they would also be taking off of work for this situation and not take advantage of the fact that they don't have to give such a strict din vcheshbon.
One year, we got hit with a double whammy. My husband's morning Seder chavrusa had a wife who was on hospitalized bed rest for most of her pregnancy. And there were other kids at home. Of course he had a very erratic learning schedule. Understood! My husband's afternoon and night seder chavrusa was undergoing a medical crisis of his own, which he was having a hard time getting an accurate diagnosis for, and he spent much of his day either at doctors or battling his symptoms. So for a good portion of the year, my husband had many many days where neither of his chavrusa showed up and he essentially had to learn on his own the entire day. And then when his chavrusas did show they were totally very behind and it was very disjointed year. But OK, these things happen. My husband didnt complain about it and neither guy was kicked out of kollel. There are understandable situations.
But then I hear about situations where people take off from a kollel where anybody honest would admit they would never be able to give a real boss such an excuse.
All I said was at the couple has to be very honest with themselves before taking off from Seder....
Your second point I don't agree with that at all. The wife chose to bear the brunt of the parnassa, and along with that comes going to doctor's appointments by yourself and dealing with certain other things alone whike your husband learns. Even if you also have a full time job. That's the life you chose and signed up for. Maybe there are girls going into it uniformed of what it really entails, but that's a whole nother topic.
And by the way, really? So many women work. Even with working hsubands. I really don't think of that kolle wives are so much worse off. (And I'm referring to kollel setups where the wife actually bears the brunt. Plenty of kollel families out there get tons of family support and the wives only work part time. But I'm not even discussing that situation, because that's not my circles.)
Regarding your third point, I agree with that partially. Yes the kollel schedule may be more flexible with the idea in mind that wives may be working long hours. But, that schedule is already in place. The men already have a breakfast break, a lunch break, breakes before and after yomim tovim, getting off early Friday etc. Those are all built into the schedule that thebclassic working man won't have and they should be helping out their wives at those times. But to take off more, on top of that, is not so acceptable in my opinion.
Your fourth point, regarding a decent salary, I completely disagree with 100%. You are taking kllal money. Money that was raised by the community for you to sit and learn during the hours the kollel set up. I think it's a chutzpa to then say, "well it's not a decent salary so I don't have to stick to the hours. I don't have to give an exact accounting for my time..." Yes you are a mature adult. You chose that route, you chose that salary, you chose that schedule. Now stick to that schedule...(baring real emergencies.) And if you don't, don't be appalled when the Rosh Kollel says something to you about it...
(And I'm speaking as a woman whose husband spent about a decade in full time learning, during much of which I worked full time as well. And FYI I had my share of difficult pregnancies.) I actually also had preeclampsia and postpartum preeclampsia. I had one pregnancy where my baby was given a 50% chance of survival, and not only was it a hard pregnancy, but it was a very difficult first year of her life - in and out of the hospital, surgery, therapies, etc. And I took off a lot from my job during that time. But I'm happy to say my husband didn't really miss much despite the turbulance. BH we were able to mke it work.
I'ts not for everyone, for sure not. But if you do take it upon yourself, it comes with a certain set of responsibilities... That's all I'm saying.
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amother
OP
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Fri, May 24 2019, 12:04 pm
Saddlebrown, can you please post under your sn or pm me? I know that you were responding to Mommyg8, but I'd rather pm you to discuss some of your posts on this thread, if you don't mind.
Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mommyg8
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Fri, May 24 2019, 12:50 pm
Saddlebrown, I don't have time to respond in length, but no, I totally disagree with everything you said. Who exactly does a kollel man have to give a din vcheshbon too? If YOUR husband, on his own, decided to be stricter with himself, that's completely his prerogative. But no, a kollel man does not have to give a din vcheshbon to the entire world. I'm finding your post very disturbing.
Just quickly about the fourth point - I dont know how much klal money you are talking about, but many kollelim in my part of town pay very little or nothing at all.
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farm
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Fri, May 24 2019, 1:34 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | Saddlebrown, I don't have time to respond in length, but no, I totally disagree with everything you said. Who exactly does a kollel man have to give a din vcheshbon too? If YOUR husband, on his own, decided to be stricter with himself, that's completely his prerogative. But no, a kollel man does not have to give a din vcheshbon to the entire world. I'm finding your post very disturbing.
Just quickly about the fourth point - I dont know how much klal money you are talking about, but many kollelim in my part of town pay very little or nothing at all. |
I agree with Saddlebrown. The person who is being ‘hired’ by the kollel doesn’t have the right to decide when they could show up. They owe an explanation to whomever gave them the kollel spot. Even if the salary is $1 a day, they still don’t have that right. No need to PM, I am comfortable posting my support of Saddlebrown’s post in my ‘own’ name.
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Mommyg8
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Fri, May 24 2019, 1:40 pm
| farm wrote: | | I agree with Saddlebrown. The person who is being ‘hired’ by the kollel doesn’t have the right to decide when they could show up. They owe an explanation to whomever gave them the kollel spot. Even if the salary is $1 a day, they still don’t have that right. No need to PM, I am comfortable posting my support of Saddlebrown’s post in my ‘own’ name. |
Just because you agree with her doesn't make you both right.
To clarify, I'm talking about legitimate doctors appointments, and in my husband's chavrusa's case, chemo treatments.
My husband works for one of the biggest employers in America and he was able to take off some time when I needed it for medical reasons. He had to get a doctor's note, but he was able to take off. It's a very sad situation indeed when kollelim are not as compassionate as employers.
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amother
OP
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Fri, May 24 2019, 1:45 pm
Delete
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farm
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Fri, May 24 2019, 1:52 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | Just because you agree with her doesn't make you both right.
To clarify, I'm talking about legitimate doctors appointments, and in my husband's chavrusa's case, chemo treatments.
My husband works for one of the biggest employers in America and he was able to take off some time when I needed it for medical reasons. He had to get a doctor's note, but he was able to take off. It's a very sad situation indeed when kollelim are not as compassionate as employers. |
She didn’t say otherwise! She said to do a careful cheshbon and make sure the kollel member is taking off as sparingly as if he had a corporate job and needed his boss’s approval each time he missed work. If he is, excellent.
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amother
Apricot
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Fri, May 24 2019, 1:53 pm
some kollels pay more then others. if a kollel isn't paying its very different then an OOT kollel that's paying nicely.
Most employers will understand medical emergencies, complicated pregnancies... I think if the husband is being PAID it is reasonable for him to treat it like a job, that doesn't mean never missing a day, that means thinking twice before he does.
Full disclosure when my dh was in kollel I didn't drive and he took me to all my obgyn appointments. He also ddin't get paid a cent, literally. No paycheck, no special housing, nothing (Ohr sameach). Now that he works I go to my appointments by myself. My pregnancies are fine though. I think if there was an issue I would ask him to come with me.
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Mommyg8
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Fri, May 24 2019, 1:59 pm
| farm wrote: | | She didn’t say otherwise! She said to do a careful cheshbon and make sure the kollel member is taking off as sparingly as if he had a corporate job and needed his boss’s approval each time he missed work. If he is, excellent. |
Saddlebrown said she had many serious medical emergencies that her husband was not involved with at all. If this was her decision, fine, but he she felt any level of coercion then in my opinion this is a perversion of Torah values. And certainly she should not be posting it here as if it was the norm. Boruch Hashem it's not, which is as it should be.
And many kollelim in my part of town pay either nothing or only a token amount.
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amother
Saddlebrown
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Fri, May 24 2019, 2:03 pm
| farm wrote: | | She didn’t say otherwise! She said to do a careful cheshbon and make sure the kollel member is taking off as sparingly as if he had a corporate job and needed his boss’s approval each time he missed work. If he is, excellent. |
This.
I have no problem with a man taking off to accompany his wife to chemo. Not sure what I said that indicated otherwise...
I clearly said family emergencies are OK. Same as with a job. That's the only point I've been trying to make- treat it like a real job. I actually posted two scenerios where my husband's chavrusas took off for various family/medical issues and we found it understandable.
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amother
Saddlebrown
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Fri, May 24 2019, 2:18 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | Saddlebrown said she had many serious medical emergencies that her husband was not involved with at all. If this was her decision, fine, but he she felt any level of coercion then in my opinion this is a perversion of Torah values. And certainly she should not be posting it here as if it was the norm. Boruch Hashem it's not, which is as it should be.
And many kollelim in my part of town pay either nothing or only a token amount. |
Didn't say he wasn't involved at all. I said he didn't take off much of kollel for it. He often came to the hospital during his lunch break, he did some night shifts there, etc. We scheduled some specialist appointments for my baby during his breakfast and lunch breaks so he could take her while I was at work. And I took off a lot of work myself..
But honestly, just because my pregnancy was high risk, why does that mean he has to come to my Drs appointments? There's nothing he can physically do to help me. It's emotional support, but I called him as soon as he was on a break and told him exactly what the doctor said. I was sent to the hospital a couple times straight from an appointment, and in those cases he came to the hospital as soon as seder was over. I really don't think that people whose husbands work in normal industries have it that much different. If my husband was a lawyer he would not be coming to all my appointments either.
The salary difference should have nothing to do with it. That's all I'm saying.
And I haven't found Roshel Kollel to be less compassionate than bosses, I'm sorry if that has been your experience. (If anything, men who take off from kollel are not usually docked pay, while if your employer lets you take off you are still are docked if you've gone over your allowed time off.)
If you're in a non-paying kollel, then maybe it's a different situation, I'm not really discussing that. In the chofetz chaim kollel, we got $80 a week at first and then it went up $12 per child or something that. Not exactly big bucks. But it's klall money and it comes with obligations.
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amother
Saddlebrown
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Fri, May 24 2019, 2:21 pm
| smileforamile wrote: | Fine, I'll post here in anger instead of pming you to try to understand where you're coming from.
I won't because I'm going to embarrass myself, but that's why I asked her to pm me. I would really rather discuss this one-on-one to understand the other person's perspective. If I can't, then I might write something I regret, because her post was very hurtful. |
I'll try to PM you after Shabbos but I'm not really sure what there is to clarify.
I am sorry you found what I said hurtful. I'm not sure why.
I don't know anyone's specific situation aside for my own, so I'm obviously not talking about your exact circumstances and judging whether it's right or wrong for your husband specifically to take off. I have no idea.
All I said was that people have to be careful that they're not abusing the fact that they're in Kollel by taking off more than they would with a regular employer. Period.
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amother
Saddlebrown
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Fri, May 24 2019, 2:33 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | Saddlebrown, I don't have time to respond in length, but no, I totally disagree with everything you said. Who exactly does a kollel man have to give a din vcheshbon too? If YOUR husband, on his own, decided to be stricter with himself, that's completely his prerogative. But no, a kollel man does not have to give a din vcheshbon to the entire world. I'm finding your post very disturbing.
Just quickly about the fourth point - I dont know how much klal money you are talking about, but many kollelim in my part of town pay very little or nothing at all. |
Mostly, he has to give the dim vcheshon to himself and be very honest with himself. After 120 there will be another din vcheshbon. And if the Rosh Kollel asks the man why he's been missing so much, he should have a valid solid reason.
By the way, I never said anything about my husband taking on extra stringencies. All I talked about was him coming and showing up during the times that he supposed to, not extra time.
and I address to the fourth point in my last post, stating we started off with $80 a week.
Though even a kollel that pays zero, still relies on community money to function, and if he's taking one of those slots so there's a responsibility there too. (Though I could hear arguements that it's not the same level of responsibility.)
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Chayalle
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Fri, May 24 2019, 2:44 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | Totally disagree. There's a huge difference between an office job and learning in kollel. First - ideally a person should be able to take off from work for a family emergency - it's just that some employers are more flexible than others. It's not an ideal- something to aspire to.
Second, it the husband is in kollel the wife is likely bearing the brunt of the parnasah responsibility and she is likely overwhelmed as it is. The least he can do is make things a little easier for her.
Third, part of what makes kollel work is that it's flexible. If the wife works at an inflexible full time job, for example, the only way it works is that the husbands schedule is more flexible. He may need to take off some time for childcare, for example. This is how the system actually works.
Fourth, as my husband once said, when they pay me a real salary I'll treat it as a real job. Men who are in kollel have hopefully chosen this route on their own because they want to learn, and they're not little babies who need to give a din vcheshbon for every minute of their time. They're not in school that they need to follow a schedule. They're adults who can make their own decisions as to how to spend their time.
My husband actually had a chavrusah who would take off here and there to take his wife for chemo treatments (this happens to be a very choshuva man who is still learning at 70). My husband knew the set up going in, this was part of their arrangement. Hopefully any compassionare employer would allow this as well. |
Very interesting perspective. I've only ever heard the "treat Kollel like a job" perspective before (though I definitely hear your DH on the salary  ) so this was interesting.
I think common sense dictates that a husband support his wife by going with her to appointments if she needs him (whether there's a complication or not....) I was raised with the concept of a 5th Shulchan Orach - the one called "mentchlichkeit". Basically, if he was there for the conception, he better show up for whatever else is needed that results from that.
And if she needs him for health-related issues....it goes without saying....
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Mommyg8
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Fri, May 24 2019, 5:06 pm
| keym wrote: | You know, I heard that before. The rosh yeshiva or rosh Kollel pays lip service to saying stay home and help.
But having seder erev shabbos (after 2pm) created a culture of expectations. The wife feels bad asking. She feels less than for not managing.
It would be more impressive to me if the rosh yeshiva said straight out every man must help. The serious man will learn on line at the bank, will learn at the park, or listen to a shirt while washing the floor.
Why even create a culture that men and women feel unrealistic pressure. |
| Notsobusy wrote: | | My good friend was having a lot of issues with her pregnancy and had a lot of appointments with specialists. Her husband's rosh kollel was extremely upset that he kept taking off and wanted to know why he had to go with her to every appointment and why they couldn't make the appointments at night so he wouldn't miss so much seder. He left the kollel after that zman because of this guy's ridiculous expectations. |
These are the two posts that started this topic. The woman was having issues with her pregnancy and had a lot of appointments with specialists. His Rosh kollel told him this was not acceptable.
Look, you may agree with this Rosh Kollel, that's nice - but I don't, for the many reasons I mentioned. There are a lot of kollelim out there, so theres no reason to argue the point, if something doesn't work for you, move on. My personal opinion is that this is wrong, but ok, it's a big world and not everyone has to agree with everyone else.
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Mommyg8
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Fri, May 24 2019, 5:26 pm
| amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote: | Actually, many of your points do not totally disagree with me at all. Some of them are in line with what I said.
Your first point regarding a family emergency, agreed. Like I said, there are circumstances where people would be taking off of work for that. But they just have to be honest with themselves that they would also be taking off of work for this situation and not take advantage of the fact that they don't have to give such a strict din vcheshbon.
One year, we got hit with a double whammy. My husband's morning Seder chavrusa had a wife who was on hospitalized bed rest for most of her pregnancy. And there were other kids at home. Of course he had a very erratic learning schedule. Understood! My husband's afternoon and night seder chavrusa was undergoing a medical crisis of his own, which he was having a hard time getting an accurate diagnosis for, and he spent much of his day either at doctors or battling his symptoms. So for a good portion of the year, my husband had many many days where neither of his chavrusa showed up and he essentially had to learn on his own the entire day. And then when his chavrusas did show they were totally very behind and it was very disjointed year. But OK, these things happen. My husband didnt complain about it and neither guy was kicked out of kollel. There are understandable situations.
But then I hear about situations where people take off from a kollel where anybody honest would admit they would never be able to give a real boss such an excuse.
All I said was at the couple has to be very honest with themselves before taking off from Seder....
Your second point I don't agree with that at all. The wife chose to bear the brunt of the parnassa, and along with that comes going to doctor's appointments by yourself and dealing with certain other things alone whike your husband learns. Even if you also have a full time job. That's the life you chose and signed up for. Maybe there are girls going into it uniformed of what it really entails, but that's a whole nother topic.
And by the way, really? So many women work. Even with working hsubands. I really don't think of that kolle wives are so much worse off. (And I'm referring to kollel setups where the wife actually bears the brunt. Plenty of kollel families out there get tons of family support and the wives only work part time. But I'm not even discussing that situation, because that's not my circles.)
Regarding your third point, I agree with that partially. Yes the kollel schedule may be more flexible with the idea in mind that wives may be working long hours. But, that schedule is already in place. The men already have a breakfast break, a lunch break, breakes before and after yomim tovim, getting off early Friday etc. Those are all built into the schedule that thebclassic working man won't have and they should be helping out their wives at those times. But to take off more, on top of that, is not so acceptable in my opinion.
Your fourth point, regarding a decent salary, I completely disagree with 100%. You are taking kllal money. Money that was raised by the community for you to sit and learn during the hours the kollel set up. I think it's a chutzpa to then say, "well it's not a decent salary so I don't have to stick to the hours. I don't have to give an exact accounting for my time..." Yes you are a mature adult. You chose that route, you chose that salary, you chose that schedule. Now stick to that schedule...(baring real emergencies.) And if you don't, don't be appalled when the Rosh Kollel says something to you about it...
(And I'm speaking as a woman whose husband spent about a decade in full time learning, during much of which I worked full time as well. And FYI I had my share of difficult pregnancies.) I actually also had preeclampsia and postpartum preeclampsia. I had one pregnancy where my baby was given a 50% chance of survival, and not only was it a hard pregnancy, but it was a very difficult first year of her life - in and out of the hospital, surgery, therapies, etc. And I took off a lot from my job during that time. But I'm happy to say my husband didn't really miss much despite the turbulance. BH we were able to mke it work.
I'ts not for everyone, for sure not. But if you do take it upon yourself, it comes with a certain set of responsibilities... That's all I'm saying. |
I have a few minutes now to respond, so let me try:
As to my first point, I think I didn't come across clearly because it seems that we do disagree. My husband has been in the workforce for over 20 years now, and there have been times that I really needed him to take off but he couldn't. There was one pregnancy that I was having complications, and I asked him to please stay home, and he said, no, I have to go to work. He went to work and I passed out in the floor, and I remember thinking - noones going to even know that I am here. It was very frightening. Another pregnancy I had to be on bed rest, and I actually had the baby a bit too early because I was alone with the kids and did stuff I shouldn't (out of necessity). Wouldn't it have been better if he would have been able to take off?
Also, my husband has pretty good work conditions and can take off pretty easily at this point. Now the pendulum has swung the other way- he often takes off for trivial reasons (and yes, he gets paid). So is this really an accurate yardstick?
To clarify, I think it's actually demeaning to liken learning to a job - my husband was In kollel because he wanted to learn, not because of the diminutive stipend. If he really wanted to not learn he could have found a real job - with a far larger salary!
As for your second point- yes, I know most women today work, but really, if you are honest, you will admit that one parent or the other should have some flexibility in their job. For example, someone who's husband works 10 hour days is likely not working full time as well, at least not without very extensive paid help. The kollel wives I know work very hard - both in the house and out- and make do with less so that their husbands can learn. I think Hakaros hatov is a Jewish concept - and yes, perhaps something he should have learned in kollel.
As for your third point- not every kollel has the same schedule. Some dont give off so much time. Or maybe it wouldn't work out with the wife's more inflexible schedule. I find that people in yeshiva don't always understand the reality of inflexible working schedules.
As for your fourth point - even if you are taking klal money, the klal should understand that a man might have to take off from kollel to take his wife to a doctor's appointment. If they don't, they should - hence my posts.
As for your own life - I'm very glad you were able to make it work, both emotionally and logistically. But not everyone has the exact same circumstance, and I think it behooves you to take a step back and realize that each person has their own circumstances, and just because YOU were able to make it work doesn't mean that someone else will be able to.
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amother
OP
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Sun, May 26 2019, 10:04 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | | As for your own life - I'm very glad you were able to make it work, both emotionally and logistically. But not everyone has the exact same circumstance, and I think it behooves you to take a step back and realize that each person has their own circumstances, and just because YOU were able to make it work doesn't mean that someone else will be able to. |
I am glad that you said this, since this was the main point I was trying to make about kollel. It works for some people, but doesn't work for others. Especially in the yeshivish communities in Brooklyn and Lakewood, there is a lot of judgment of those whose husbands don't stay in learning longer-term. That is the attitude that makes me feel alienated from the community with whom I otherwise have a lot in common.
Now, for those of you who said there are places that are more aligned with me hashkafically - DH and I are interested in Baltimore and Passaic. Can anyone chime in about those communities? Do you think there are younger people there where the husband is working but they are machshiv Torah and want the DH to always be connected to Torah? Are there shuls with people like that who are not only 40+?
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amother
Saddlebrown
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Sun, May 26 2019, 10:18 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | I have a few minutes now to respond, so let me try:
As to my first point, I think I didn't come across clearly because it seems that we do disagree. My husband has been in the workforce for over 20 years now, and there have been times that I really needed him to take off but he couldn't. There was one pregnancy that I was having complications, and I asked him to please stay home, and he said, no, I have to go to work. He went to work and I passed out in the floor, and I remember thinking - noones going to even know that I am here. It was very frightening. Another pregnancy I had to be on bed rest, and I actually had the baby a bit too early because I was alone with the kids and did stuff I shouldn't (out of necessity). Wouldn't it have been better if he would have been able to take off?
Also, my husband has pretty good work conditions and can take off pretty easily at this point. Now the pendulum has swung the other way- he often takes off for trivial reasons (and yes, he gets paid). So is this really an accurate yardstick?
To clarify, I think it's actually demeaning to liken learning to a job - my husband was In kollel because he wanted to learn, not because of the diminutive stipend. If he really wanted to not learn he could have found a real job - with a far larger salary!
As for your second point- yes, I know most women today work, but really, if you are honest, you will admit that one parent or the other should have some flexibility in their job. For example, someone who's husband works 10 hour days is likely not working full time as well, at least not without very extensive paid help. The kollel wives I know work very hard - both in the house and out- and make do with less so that their husbands can learn. I think Hakaros hatov is a Jewish concept - and yes, perhaps something he should have learned in kollel.
As for your third point- not every kollel has the same schedule. Some dont give off so much time. Or maybe it wouldn't work out with the wife's more inflexible schedule. I find that people in yeshiva don't always understand the reality of inflexible working schedules.
As for your fourth point - even if you are taking klal money, the klal should understand that a man might have to take off from kollel to take his wife to a doctor's appointment. If they don't, they should - hence my posts.
As for your own life - I'm very glad you were able to make it work, both emotionally and logistically. But not everyone has the exact same circumstance, and I think it behooves you to take a step back and realize that each person has their own circumstances, and just because YOU were able to make it work doesn't mean that someone else will be able to. |
I concede, you are correct - you do make some very good points in this post.
Smile - I wish you all the best in finding the best place for you and your family.
As for me, I will say goodbye. I am going off Imamother for a long time, hopefully forever if I have enough self control. I don't think it does me good to hang out on here and whenever I get involved in a heated topic (very infrequently) I always regret it and feel I do more harm than good.
All the best to you all!
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forgetit
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Sun, May 26 2019, 10:22 pm
I never lived in Passaic, but I can't resist from chiming in. I know a couple of ppl there and they are all so, so positive about it. It really sounds like a beautiful place. Very warm, accepting of all types. It is relatively close to city, (if relevant for work).
One of my cousins is a rav there, and they have a Thursday night get together that he will rarely (if ever) miss. His wife bakes kugel each week. Sounds really nice and warm. The rebbetzin is a doll. Don't know anyone who doesnt love her. She really has a way with people, down to earth, funny like anything, warm, etc.
I have an old neighbor who is part of a different 'sub community' in Passaic. She moved from Lakewood (where she felt similar to waht you described feeling) and is so happy she moved. DH was in community type kollel where he learned with baalei batim. Maybe works part time. Not sure, but either way, she claims that they have all types there. There are many, many workers/learners/earners, etc.
Much less into gashmius/dress/style than than city.
Homes are pretty old, though.
Cost of life is WAY less than in Flatbush.
Are you ok with rural life, coming from the city?
From the bit I know, Passaic is more of a mix than Baltimore. Baltimore is more yeshivish. Baltimore even has some chassidim now.
But all of what I said is just what I know from others. Other posters will surely have better firsthand info. I just couldnt resist sharing bec. I heard so many nice things about Passaic.
Please, please, please forgive me if I'm wrong on any account. I know some people here are very sensitive...
Last edited by forgetit on Sun, May 26 2019, 10:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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