American Yeshivish

Chayalle

Tue, May 21 2019, 10:15 am

keym wrote:

Flattered.

Though I really am curious nervously. What are they teaching in by high schools and seminary. I'm 20 years out. But when I read op's post, I can't relate. I mean sure we had a teacher or two who presented an extreme, unrealistic view. But not "wholesale".
Is this what is being taught now so vigorously?
Are the girls just not sophisticated enough to filter what some teachers say?

I'm not sure. Maybe it depends on the school/yeshiva? I don't get this feeling from my girls...yeah, they have had one or two teachers whom they consider a bit extreme, but most are pretty normal.....or if there's something they heard that doesn't sit right with them, they bring it up and we talk about it....

keym

Tue, May 21 2019, 10:17 am

smileforamile wrote:

That's what I call it, too. I am currently trying to get through the Nineteen Letters from R' Hirsch, but it's hard when you're totally drained.

Where are there plenty like you? I am pretty much middle-of-the-road yeshivish, but not Lithuanian-style yeshivish. That's why I said American.

You actually sound OOT yeshivish. (I mean that in a true compliment).
You might do well in a large city: Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland, Miami, Baltimore, LA.
The yeshivish box is large and overlaps with the JPF box. Restrictions for truly belonging are more of the "keeping halacha, trying to grow".
I and my husband were raised in some of those kinds of communities. I'm fine in Lakewood, but I truly cannot relate to many parts of the Brooklyn rules.

amother

Tue, May 21 2019, 10:17 am

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

How about R' Dovid Cohen? AFAIK he is also very anti programs (BTW so is DH, even though he's chassidish from birth).My mom calls Rabbi Cohen, and he's very amenable. But he has set hours and can be difficult to get through to. There must be many more. Maybe start a new thread for this?
Or, for hashkafic topics maybe you can speak to a rebbetzin type? My mom calls one of her friends who is married to a litvish posek for advice bec. she likes where the woman is today in terms of hashkafah and it helps her gain clarity even though its not halachic rulings. I also once spoke to the wife of a Rosh Yeshiva bec. I knew that DH respected him and I wanted to explain my dilemma to someone who was in line with DH's hashkafa.

I have called R' Dovid Cohen in the past, but he's a little too blunt and direct for me. Also, I feel like calling him about certain topics (birth control, metzitza b'peh, a few other things) is Rav shopping, since I know that he is lenient in these areas.

I don't know any rebbetzin-types who are aligned with me hashkafically. I have a few teachers from seminary whom I used to talk to, but at this point in my life, I'm not where I was a few years after seminary (B'H for that). These teachers are way too chareidi. But I haven't found anyone whom I trust, especially since many of my questions are not just straight hashkafa questions- they have a lot to do with my background.

Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Burgundy

Tue, May 21 2019, 10:18 am

Chayalle wrote:

I'm sorry to be really blunt, but my DH would call someone like your friend's husband "krum, not frum." And DH is pretty RW yeshivish.

It disturbs me to hear that there is such a trend in the yeshiva world. It definitely was not my experience. I was taught as a Kallah that the goal is to be out of nidda ASAP, and that greater Rabbanim would go to great lengths to be matir a nidda sheila.

The man needs another Chosson shmuess.

(maybe because I've been thru IF, but you can't imagine the sheilos I've been told were okay, by some of Lakewood's biggest poskim. I've never heard any such concept of being super machmir being a good thing.)

Sometimes if changes the picture. We are rw yeshivish and pretty machmir on everything. But at this point of my marriage, I joke that I'm barely keeping th anymore because the Rav we go to for maros feels so bad for us.

amother

Tue, May 21 2019, 10:19 am

keym wrote:

I am rather like that, actually. I get along very well with people from OOT. My MIL is from OOT, which means my DH was raised with more of that mentality.

I love Baltimore, but I don't know if I could move there for many different reasons.

Yep, you just described my ideals pretty well. Self-honesty is a big part of it.

Doesn't Lakewood have a lot of the Brooklyn rules?

Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Tue, May 21 2019, 10:26 am

amother [ Burgundy ] wrote:

I dunno, I was taught that an experienced Rav wants to be matir a mareh, that's how it is supposed to be.

I remember years ago DH took a sheilah to a certain Rav, and he said, take it to R' So-and-so because he can probably be matir it. He did, it was fine.

I was taught that this is the FRUM way.

I still remember the Shabbos before my wedding, I did my bedikah and almost got hysterical. You don't want to know. But I stayed calm like my Kallah teacher had told me. Motzoei Shabbos I spoke to my father (he'd been away for Shabbos for the Aufruf) and he told me to take it to the Rav up their block because that Rav is an expert. My first sheilah! Rav took one look and told me it's totally fine, it's a different type of blood.

(don't ask me what that means, I have no idea. But I learned right then and there that you can ask sheilos no matter how bad it might look, and it just might be fine! And that if you have that level sheilah, ask an expert!)

doctorima

Tue, May 21 2019, 10:31 am

Hi Smile - You sound like a wonderful kindred spirit! I found myself nodding along as I read your OP. I dress fully in accordance with halacha and try not to be influenced by all the latest trends, but I also value education, knowing what's going on in the world, and definitely travel (!).

The only difference is that I've definitely managed to find a reasonably workable niche here in Flatbush, in terms of schools that are relatively aligned with us for both boys and girls, a shul where DH feels comfortable, a yeshivish Rav who's also old-school enough to be healthily balanced and understanding, and friends for my kids.

As far as the machmir bedikah Rav, a Rav we know who's color-blind and unable to pasken on bedikos gave DH some other names to go to instead, but said make sure not to go to so-and-so because his mesorah is too machmir and not mainstream.

Paradoxically, I find that many of the yeshivish people in the many OOT communities we've visited are actually narrower than I am and many of my more open-minded but still filtered Brooklyn friends, and rules I hear about in places like Lakewood would never work for me.

I don't want to give out too much personal info here, but feel free to PM me if I could be helpful, regarding a Rav or anything else.

amother

Tue, May 21 2019, 10:45 am

Chayalle wrote:

We've talked about this in pm. But many yeshivish people I know think that machmir automatically means more frum. This is especially true with people who weren't brought up as yeshivish but now want to be.

I was taught the same way you were. B'H in terms of maros I haven't had any problem.

Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Tue, May 21 2019, 10:52 am

smileforamile wrote:

Yeah, I've met some people like that, but I wouldn't call them most yeshivish people I know, and not even many. I guess we are just in different yeshivish circles.

Interestingly, when I think of one person I know who has the most chumrahs of anyone I've ever met, what you say is true - she actually did not grow up yeshivish and now seems to be trying to outdo everyone. But there's really a lack of balance to her approach, and I fear how it is affecting her kids. I'd be surprised if they continue in this way as adults.

I do know some people who grew up super-yeshivish and continue that way as adults, but they are not quite that gung-ho - they have things they are machmir about, and other areas where they are pretty chilled. And also some degree of fluctuation in their families, with some kids turning out like their parents, and some not.

amother

Burgundy

Tue, May 21 2019, 10:54 am

Chayalle wrote:

I'm listening to the Rav. It's not that I'm not. I'm just saying that sometimes if changes the picture. I don't think he would have told me many of the things that he told me to do if I did not have infertility.

keym

Tue, May 21 2019, 10:58 am

smileforamile wrote:

Could be the rules are officially the same.
But in Lakewood, I found a much larger percentage of people who have similar ideas as my OOT mentality regarding gashmius.
Target and Carters clothing, Ikea or second hand furniture, second hand cars as opposed to leasing brand new, simpler sickos (I had never heard of a party planner let alone hiring one at an upsherin), simple mishloach manos etc.
It just means that I could relate to many of my lakewood friends, even If they are more extreme.

amother

Tue, May 21 2019, 11:00 am

keym wrote:

I went to BYA seminary, which is one of the most -- if not the most -- hashkafically extreme seminary out there. The things I could tell you...

Also, in my former high school, the hashkafos have gotten much more extreme than when I was there -- as the parent and student body move farther to the center.

I was taught in seminary:
a) it "might" be enough for Americans to only cover their knees by 4 inches. The real halacha is that skirts must be duty length.
b) Halachically, your sheitels can't be longer than shoulder length. There's no difference between E'Y and America.
c) The whole of klal Yisroel is compared to a body. The talmidei chachamim are the heart. Do you want to marry a toenail? (Seriously!)
d) Yaakov said "אלה הילדים אשר חנן האלקים את עבדך". Children represent ruchniyus, and to say you can't have another one because of finances is anti-ruchniyus.

I could go on and on...

(I was talking to a seminary teacher whom I had a kesher with, and I told her that my Rav told me to put in an IUD. She gave me a lecture that that was very extreme and asked me if I've tried the natural method. Hello, there's a reason my Rav told me to get an IUD!)

Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Tue, May 21 2019, 11:02 am

amother [ Burgundy ] wrote:

Yeah, there are some things I was told to do because of my IF, but I'm not even talking strictly about that. I've found that there are Rabbanim that can be meikil because they have greater knowledge of anatomy, of colors, etc...it's easier to be machmir than to be meikil. If someone is known to be super machmir, it doesn't make me think he is more knowledgeable. And even if someone has 10 kids under 10, their focus should be to get out of niddah asap, and go to someone who really knows his stuff, if possible.

amother

Tue, May 21 2019, 11:03 am

amother [ Burgundy ] wrote:

Infertility isn't the only reason that rabbanim give kullos.

Yes, maybe your situation changed things somewhat. Still, the whole premise of TH is that husband and wife are meant to be together and not apart. If a Rav is paskening l'chumrah and keeping husband and wife apart, that is not Yiddishkeit, at least not as far as I was taught.

Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

keym

Tue, May 21 2019, 11:10 am

Chayalle wrote:

I see this also mostly in women.
I blame it on 1) not learning chumros from the sources 2) not wanting to reveal themselves as newbies.
I still say in most cases, there is clearly a mental condition or lack of intelligence that makes them act oblivious.
I know someone whose daughters NEVER wear pants. Ever. Even 1 day old infant in a nightgown or dress and tights- no stretchies. She doesn't ask a rav because she doesn't want people to know that she doesn't know something so basic.
But how clueless do you have to be to see that all girls even the ry and rebbes daughters of the most yeshivish families, wear stretches and pants. Ok. Some stop at 18 months, some at 2, some at 3, 4, 5, whatever.
But never?
So is it unintelligence? OCD? A rush out of being better than everyone? Sadism?

Chayalle

Tue, May 21 2019, 11:11 am

smileforamile wrote:

Wow.

I wonder if the seminaries have moved more to the right. I'm probably about 20 years older than you are, or close....I didn't think it was like that way back then. I went to a different seminary, but considered just as RW as BYA, and I didn't hear these messages quite that strongly there. But I've heard that the seminary I went to has moved more to the right, too....

We definitely heard about chashivus haTorah, but no one said marrying someone who works is like marrying a toenail. For goodness sake. We learned about tzniyus inspirationally, but I never heard inches mentioned. (In fact, inches didn't used to be a "thing". I heard the whole inches shpiel for the first time after my marriage, in Lakewood. In high school, I was taught to wear skirts that covered my knees in all positions. No one talked about inches, and no one dreamed of rulers.) No one talked about sheitel lenghth, just that they should look refined, as should hair styles. We didn't talk about number of children....

amother

Tue, May 21 2019, 11:15 am

keym wrote:

That's a good point- it is mostly the women. I think it's an insecurity in frumkeit and a need to show everyone how frum they are. Also, yes, we don't learn the difference between ikar halacha and chumrah enough.

My sister went to Machon Raaya. There, they taught the girls the difference between ikar halacha, which psakim we follow, minhag hamakom, chumrah, minhag in general. It's amazing how much we do as a geder to a geder to a geder.

Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

moonstone

Tue, May 21 2019, 11:16 am

Boca00 wrote:

We are part of a NJ kollel, not chofetz chaim, but our Rosh Yeshiva is also very understanding of emotions and will often ask "what does your wife think?" When we asked him about sleep training, he told us "as long as your wife feels is ok" (but added 10 min is too long). Post-baby, he tells kollel guys that "if your wife needs you, go home".

He does not allow his kollel guys to take government programs with the recent exception of healthcare.

We girls wear color, dont talk "yeshivish" and have filtered internet. Yes, we work, but the kollel pays and also provides an apartment. The schedule allows the kollel guys to be around carpool and meal times. I actually think when my husband goes out to work it will be much more difficult for me.

So yeah... I think we could get along.

Why would you ask a rabbi about sleep training? Is he also a pediatrician?

mha3484

Tue, May 21 2019, 11:17 am

I am in a large midwestern city and this sounds so much like myself and my friends. We are in our 30's and a mix of BT and FFB. Most of us have kids in elementary school and younger.

I feel like there is a large segment of my community that is very middle of the road. We go to the public library, most of us have some form of internet, my sons yeshiva has like 5 rules for parents and all are super reasonable and only apply on school grounds. I can go on...

Personally, I am BT for a long time and feel extremely integrated with my FFB friends. I am someone who really is put off by any kind of extremism either to the right or the left and would really struggle in some communities but this works for me. When we had our yeshiva interview for my oldest child, the menahel told us that they are a school for growth oriented people. I liked that a lot. It was not about fitting a certain mold but wanting to aim higher then you currently are.