A way to solve the tuition crisis

southernbubby

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 1:26 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

No, contrary to imamother belief, most people oot are struggling with tuition even though excess materialism is not a big issue.

It depends on the town. Detroit was not materialistic. I don't know what LA or Miami is like. A lot of people got tuition breaks OOT but each community also has fewer schools for the community to support.
What resonates with me about his article is that there are some shmendricks everywhere who don't manage to pay until their kids are about to get kicked out. We are not talking about people who have no ability to pay. He clearly says at the beginning that if their kid gets engaged, suddenly they have money.
Read the article and decide if this could only happen in Monsey.

amother

Green

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 1:39 pm

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

I am saying that it is unrealistic to expect the average family to afford $60,000+ post-tax annually in tuition, even if they live in an affordable community with both spouses working. The numbers are just too staggeringly high. I said nothing in my previous post about cost of living, just pointed out that median household income in the US (pre-tax) is less than what this hypothetical family might pay in tuition costs (post-tax). That means that even if they live in a cardboard box, they can't afford to pay tuition. Never mind food and clothing and other (necessary, non-lavish) expenses.

I'm looking at this list of affordable cities in the US: https://www.kiplinger.com/slid......html and in almost all of them, median household income (again, pre-tax) is less than $50,000; in many cases, substantially less. Even if a family earns 1.5 x the median household income in these affordable cities, they are going to barely eke out enough to pay tuition after taxes (in some cities, not even). If they earn 2x the median household income, they may barely make enough to pay for tuition plus maybe cover rent.

Obviously, there are vocations that are well-paid and that can more comfortably afford the staggering $60,000+/year in tuition. But it is unrealistic in the extreme to expect every person in our communities to have the aptitude, skills and interest in pursuing such vocations. Expecting everyone in our community to be significantly above average is an unfair expectation.

Why not the bolded? If we had decent secular education, then we would have more professionals. When I was growing up, Jews were the ones who became professionals. Jews were the top students. Now they get married young and have kids right away. Professional school is often some second rate program.

amother

Chocolate

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 1:43 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

It's equally unrealistic to expect a communal fund to fund $60K per family in a community.

We all agree that the cost of a Jewish lifestyle has spiraled out of control and is unaffordable to the large majority. We need to come up with solutions to solve it, not try to place the burden on the small minority of the rich in the community or come up with ways to continue with the status quo. The status quo needs to go & we either need to figure out a way to bring down costs, or figure out ways where our young men & women can earn high figure incomes. Without doing either of these two options, a communal fund is merely a band-aid. With our large burgeoning societies (Baruch Hashem!), a communal fund is merely a band-aid, a pyramid scheme, with kicking the ball down the road.

I am not OP and haven't said a word in support of her proposal.

I was responding to your post, which made it seem as though if we "focus on financial sustainability," and "educate & preach about living with one's means," we can expect the average family to cover tuition costs on their own.

Once we all agree that, in fact, "the cost of a Jewish lifestyle has spiraled out of control and is unaffordable to the large majority," we can all agree to look for ways to solve it. But discussing education about financial sustainability, as though it is feasible for the average family to do this on their own, makes it seem as though it's reasonable for the average family to afford these kind of prices on their own. It's not. And that's the problem.

amother

Silver

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 1:46 pm

In my community the successful businesses have a scholarship fund for all the children of the community who cant afford full tuition wherever they choose to go. Families must apply to this fund each year with eligibility and financial / tax info.

Businesses get tax benefits, help their own, struggling have dignity.

I dont see why this wouldnt work anywhere. Its just not done most places.

amother

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 1:52 pm

To answer the "people move around" argument, it wouldn't be tied to a specific community or school, rather to a specific person. The fund might be COLLECTED wherever you used to live, but accessed wherever you live now.

Whether or not it is practical is a different question, but to answer that particular argument.

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 2:00 pm

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

I agree. Aren't we all frum women? Do people here honestly believe they can take God out of the picture? All of the success in the world is כחי ועצם ידי? There are so many reasons for families to struggle financially in America today.

amother

Green

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 2:06 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

You destroyed the tax benefits of having a scholarship fund.

"A scholarship fund to benefit yourself of someone you know (a relative, a specific group of people designated by you) is not tax deductible. A fund that awards scholarships on an "objective and nondiscriminatory basis" is tax deductible for its donors."

teachkids

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 2:24 pm

I don't have time to read the whole thread but one major flaw is that at this point one of us is still finishing schooling and we don't have 1,500 a month to spare. By the time our kids start school he'll iyH be working and money will be easier. I would imagine we're not the only couple having kids while still students and only able to pay baby costs at that point.

amother

Maroon

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 3:09 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

And if you move overseas?

And what happens if the board will threaten to hold someone's funds, just to get them in line with some sort of community demand? Having a board have so much power over people's money is just begging for corruption or power grabs. Again I ask, why can't people do this on an individual level? I don't see any benefit of this on a communal level (this being tax-deductible is highly questionable). This would need to have some major benefits for the pros to really outweigh the cons.

amother

Maroon

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 3:10 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

Right now though, we've taken proper hishtadlus out of the picture. So many are relying on either parents, gov't, handouts, or a miracle. There needs to be the proper balance that the Torah advises.

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 3:12 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

Right now though, we've taken proper hishtadlus out of the picture. So many are relying on either parents, gov't, handouts, or a miracle. There needs to be the proper balance that the Torah advises.

Who are you to say whether the hishtadlus other people are doing is proper? Someone can be doing hishtadlus to the utmost and still struggle financially. And so so so many people do, with tuition being a huge factor.

amother

Maroon

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 3:16 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

Because I hail from a community who marries off kids without any financial responsibility, parnossoh skills and education at all! They get married and "will figure it out later". Being that the Torah spells out just the opposite, it's pretty up in your face that this is not the hishtadlus that we are expected to do.

Of course there will always be people who struggle even with the proper hishtadlus, but the number of them would be far less than what it is today.

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 3:19 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

I'm sorry to hear that. I'm not talking about that, though. I'm talking about people who put in the effort, but it's simply not going to be the norm for all families to earn well into the six figures. Which is what it would take for everyone to actually afford tuition as it is now. There's a reason only a small minority of American families are earning that much. Why the assumption that ALL frum families could do it if they only cared enough to try?

amother

Maroon

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 3:19 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

Additionally, the number of people struggling speak for themselves. There will always a small minority of rich, small minority of poor & a majority of middle class. But in our communities the number of poor & struggling families is far more than a small minority. So being that our numbers are so skewed against the rest of the population, it does show that many of us are not doing the proper hishtadlus.

And if you still believe that people ARE doing the proper hishtadlus and we nevertheless have such a large number of struggling families, then there is something very wrong with the lifestyle we've set up.

amother

Maroon

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 3:22 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

No one said ALL frum families - but definitely more than we have now will be able to make it. If we tip the balance a bit, have more families being able to financially independent, there will be less strain on the schools & community & more people being available to help out others.

One of things that we can do is what others have mentioned. Train the young ones to have professional jobs. If both spouses hold down professional jobs, then there's a very high chance the income will be in the six figures. We have such good yiddishe kep - lets give them the tools to be able to use it.

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 3:25 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

Yes, I agree that something is wrong with this lifestyle. Because if I have 5 kids and the schools expect $55k in tuition every year, I have to be earning a very significant income to afford that in addition to all my other expenses. Most frum families fit squarely into the middle class, yet they still struggle. Because their expenses, thanks to tuition, are way beyond those of the average middle class American.

Rappel

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 3:29 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Stop begrudging others' disposable income. Many times, gvirim silently give people money to pay for weddings without shame. There is a stunning level of tzedakkah and chessed focused around weddings.

amother

Maroon

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 3:32 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

I actually believe that it's both contributing to the mess we are in today. Many people are not doing the proper hishtadlus, AND there is something very wrong with the lifestyle that we have set up for ourselves. We have set up a system where people are encouraged to marry early without a financial foundation, have many kids, pay high tuition costs, plus be able to fund all the other Jewish obligations. It's unsustainable al pi derech hateva, whichever way you twist it.

And that's precisely why I don't believe a communal fund will ever work. Why continue finding ways to fund something completely unsustainable? Rework the system, instead of working the backs of the overstressed people.

amother

Maroon

Sun, Jun 30 2019, 3:36 pm

Rappel wrote:

Stop begrudging others' disposable income. Many times, gvirim silently give people money to pay for weddings without shame. There is a stunning level of tzedakkah and chessed focused around weddings.

Yes, there is a beautiful & stunning level of tzedakah and chessed focused around weddings, but sadly, there is a stunning level of people in need for that tzedakah and chesed.

We have so many organizations helping people out of their troubles, I wish we'd have more organizations helping people avoid falling into the troubles in the first place.