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Do Rebbes or male teachers make more than female teachers?
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amother




Cyan


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 4:31 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Since I joined this forum over a decade ago I have been extremely critical of the charedi rt w world

Here is where I'm fair and castigate the MO system

Cyan and everyone who thinks like you
HELLO MC FLY ....
Only 3% of YU goes into chinuch
The pay is a joke and it's no glamorous

From the time a boy starts talking he is told make money be successful
Go to an Ivy League school
And he better make money
How will he pay his children's tuition

So where are these MO rebbeim supposed to magically come from


That was my point in regard to how the Rebbi application pool is very small, much smaller than the demand. As opposed to female teachers.
And that is why they get paid significantly better.

FYI, my children have had some wonderful YU simcha Rebbeyim. But they really do make descent money as they should. Not to say that the women shouldn't also.

I think the women should be paid comparably to the men, but that doesn't make me begrudge what the men make.
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amother




Green


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 4:38 pm
But why should they make more than a female teacher who went to Stern and works the same hours? Who doesn't have semicha, but does have a graduate degree?
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creditcards




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 4:41 pm
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
There is no justification for a "market rate" that is based on gender alone. Which admittedly in much of the heimish world, exists. It is wrong. You have been taught this is the norm and are therefore complacent but women working equally, should be paid equally. If I do the same work as a man, there is no moral justification that I should be paid less unless you think men are worth inherently more than women. What a sad thought.

Unfortunately until the women grow a backbone as and say "no more" this will prevail.


This is just the reality that I am living with. I used to do bookkeeping and my boss hired a male bookkeeper to do some of the work and paid him much much more. I asked my boss for a raise he replied. "It's not happening, then everyone will want a raise" I had 3 more female bookkeeper workmates. I should have told him so I'm not coming in tomorrow, but I didn't. He really took advantage of me. I stopped working for him after I had my first baby. But even when I wasn't working anymore they used to call me at home to ask questions and I answered everything (for free) just plain because. Even while in labor I made a phone call for him. I knew all his information by heart. After I had my baby I tried filing for unemployment but he refused to let me and fought me.
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amother




Cyan


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 4:42 pm
amother [ Green ] wrote:
But why should they make more than a female teacher who went to Stern and works the same hours? Who doesn't have semicha, but does have a graduate degree?


I would love for the women to make it as well, but we are discussing supply and demand.
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amother




Blush


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 4:42 pm
amother [ Cyan ] wrote:
That was my point in regard to how the Rebbi application pool is very small, much smaller than the demand. As opposed to female teachers.
And that is why they get paid significantly better.

FYI, my children have had some wonderful YU simcha Rebbeyim. But they really do make descent money as they should.


In the MO model - what you need a Rebbe for? Why not a qualified teacher of any gender?
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amother




Aqua


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 4:47 pm
I’m worried about the OP. Is there a reason you started this thread?

Boys teachers and Rabbaim will often make or break a school. Especially a new school. Gemara is of paramount importance in most curriculums, and you’re basically asking every single child to excel with some pretty advanced intellectual work (new languages, higher reasoning, predictive thinking, etc), such that a Rebbe needs to be skilled to help kids succeed. Are they all skilled? Well, no. But the bad ones are very, very bad and schools have become more about customer service. I.e, what the parents (who pay tuition and donate money) demand. And they want someone in the class that can make that child succeed. So schools are willing to pay more to attract talent to keep their consumer base happy.

If your child has a bad math or English teacher, odds are there are both Jewish and non-Jewish teachers to fill the gap, as the field is less specialized, and thus, the pay is less. But people can accept that their child is “bad” at math. Being “bad” at Gemara has very different connotations. Unfortunately.

A Hebrew Morah has gone to seminary. A Rebbe has gone much further. The pay is therefore different, commensurate with experience. But for the most part, the pay is unequal. In my area, elementary school Rebbes can make close to six figures. To make that equal across the board will result in somewhat astounding tuition bills, so the schools choose to throw teachers under the bus. The choice is either make tuition $35,000 a year or higher, or pay the Rebbes less and get less talent. I made a pittance when I was a teacher, and the work was insane. But I understood the dilemma. I’m not saying it’s right, I’m saying that the teachers are well aware of the discrepancy and most go along with it knowing the situation.
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creditcards




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 5:01 pm
amother [ Aqua ] wrote:
I’m worried about the OP. Is there a reason you started this thread?

Boys teachers and Rabbaim will often make or break a school. Especially a new school. Gemara is of paramount importance in most curriculums, and you’re basically asking every single child to excel with some pretty advanced intellectual work (new languages, higher reasoning, predictive thinking, etc), such that a Rebbe needs to be skilled to help kids succeed. Are they all skilled? Well, no. But the bad ones are very, very bad and schools have become more about customer service. I.e, what the parents (who pay tuition and donate money) demand. And they want someone in the class that can make that child succeed. So schools are willing to pay more to attract talent to keep their consumer base happy.

If your child has a bad math or English teacher, odds are there are both Jewish and non-Jewish teachers to fill the gap, as the field is less specialized, and thus, the pay is less. But people can accept that their child is “bad” at math. Being “bad” at Gemara has very different connotations. Unfortunately.

A Hebrew Morah has gone to seminary. A Rebbe has gone much further. The pay is therefore different, commensurate with experience. But for the most part, the pay is unequal. In my area, elementary school Rebbes can make close to six figures. To make that equal across the board will result in somewhat astounding tuition bills, so the schools choose to throw teachers under the bus. The choice is either make tuition $35,000 a year or higher, or pay the Rebbes less and get less talent. I made a pittance when I was a teacher, and the work was insane. But I understood the dilemma. I’m not saying it’s right, I’m saying that the teachers are well aware of the discrepancy and most go along with it knowing the situation.


Do the girls also learn Gemara in co-ed schools?
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amother




Honeydew


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 5:05 pm
As far as I know, pay is the same for men and women in MO schools. And in New Jersey at least, a Jewish studies teacher - male or female- who has a religious role, like supervising tefila, is entitled to parsonage. So everyone gets the same benefits as well.
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amother




Cyan


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 5:06 pm
amother [ Blush ] wrote:
In the MO model - what you need a Rebbe for? Why not a qualified teacher of any gender?

My my kids have a mix of teachers for limudei Kodesh. Both male and female. Rebbeyim are important for many reasons, the first which comes to mind is role model/mentor. Additionally, Sometimes the kids have Shailahs in school (mine did in regard to vegan salad where she cooked the chickpeas in a clean meat pot, put it on a paper plate and then put school salad dressing, which she thought was pareve, but was smart enough to ask the masgiach in the lunchroom befor she ate, and it was made with garlic cut with a dairy knife. It would be baal tashchit to just toss, so she found a Rav and asked a shailah. She even called me to find out how long since the pot had meat. It was tossed in the end, and you can say that it is easier to just toss and save all the run around, but it was correct to ask and provided a great chimichanga opportunity.)
Davening-it is important to have assistance/education on the boys side of the mechitza as well.
There are many roles that they fill which often a woman can, but sometimes it is better to have a Rav.
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amother




Chartreuse


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 5:08 pm
amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:
Yes they do.
I am a bookkeeper in a school
They work the same hours, but the rebbeim work 3 hours on Sundays too.

Rebeim get more than DOUBLE the moros. Even the first year Rebbe. The rational is the men are supporting a family


This. Single and married female teachers get paid differently as well, afaik. We're talking about RW "in-town" schools.
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amother




Cyan


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 5:08 pm
amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:
As far as I know, pay is the same for men and women in MO schools. And in New Jersey at least, a Jewish studies teacher - male or female- who has a religious role, like supervising tefila, is entitled to parsonage. So everyone gets the same benefits as well.


Great! I had heard otherwise from my teacher friends (who complain), but I am thrilled to hear that. I hope it is true.
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amother




Blush


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 5:14 pm
amother [ Cyan ] wrote:
My my kids have a mix of teachers for limudei Kodesh. Both male and female. Rebbeyim are important for many reasons, the first which comes to mind is role model/mentor. Additionally, Sometimes the kids have Shailahs in school (mine did in regard to vegan salad where she cooked the chickpeas in a clean meat pot, put it on a paper plate and then put school salad dressing, which she thought was pareve, but was smart enough to ask the masgiach in the lunchroom befor she ate, and it was made with garlic cut with a dairy knife. It would be baal tashchit to just toss, so she found a Rav and asked a shailah. She even called me to find out how long since the pot had meat. It was tossed in the end, and you can say that it is easier to just toss and save all the run around, but it was correct to ask and provided a great chimichanga opportunity.)
Davening-it is important to have assistance/education on the boys side of the mechitza as well.
There are many roles that they fill which often a woman can, but sometimes it is better to have a Rav.


Yes. Good for Jewish school to have a Rav or two present for kids to ask a Shaila to (and for a lot of other reasons - like davening role model). doesn't answer why that person needs to be in their classroom.

pardon my ignorance - do all Rebbi's have Smicha?
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amother




Cyan


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 5:15 pm
creditcards wrote:
Do the girls also learn Gemara in co-ed schools?

I did (25 years ago) and my DDs currently do.
My DD in a co-ed school has only had Rabbi Gemara teachers. And amazing women Chumash and Navi teachers in her co-ed classroom.
My DD in a all girls school has had male and female Gemara teachers.
I love that her school has amazing, talented, learned women who teach Gemara !
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amother




Pearl


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 9:31 pm
amother [ Blush ] wrote:
In the MO model - what you need a Rebbe for? Why not a qualified teacher of any gender?


Not all MO schools are co-ed. My husband teaches in an all boys high school. They only have Rebbeim as limudei kodesh and they have women as secular studies
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amother




Blush


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 9:36 pm
amother [ Pearl ] wrote:
Not all MO schools are co-ed. My husband teaches in an all boys high school. They only have Rebbeim as limudei kodesh and they have women as secular studies


Why?
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amother




Pearl


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 9:38 pm
amother [ Blush ] wrote:
Why?

Sorry I don't understand. Why do they only have male Rebbeim or why do they have female secular?
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amother




Blush


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 9:48 pm
amother [ Pearl ] wrote:
Sorry I don't understand. Why do they only have male Rebbeim or why do they have female secular?


Why don't they allow qualified women to teach the boys limudei kodesh?
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amother




Pearl


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 9:57 pm
amother [ Blush ] wrote:
Why don't they allow qualified women to teach the boys limudei kodesh?


Well I think by this schools definition qualified would mean Smicha through an appropriate institution and those institutions don't give women smicha and so no woman would ever be "qualified" as to their qualifications. Secondly, the school is all male so in terms of forming a bond with a Rebbe it's easier and more appropriate to do so with male Rebbeim and not female. I have friends who are highly-qualified limudei kodesh teachers but I can't imagine them having a tisch with these boys or bonding with them over their favorite sports teams.
Again, this is just my speculation but I think the reasons above would be some of the main reasons why non co-ed MO schools hire only male limudei kodesh teachers.
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amother




Blush


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 10:00 pm
amother [ Pearl ] wrote:
Well I think by this schools definition qualified would mean Smicha through an appropriate institution and those institutions don't give women smicha and so no woman would ever be "qualified" as to their qualifications. Secondly, the school is all male so in terms of forming a bond with a Rebbe it's easier and more appropriate to do so with male Rebbeim and not female. I have friends who are highly-qualified limudei kodesh teachers but I can't imagine them having a tisch with these boys or bonding with them over their favorite sports teams.
Again, this is just my speculation but I think the reasons above would be some of the main reasons why non co-ed MO schools hire only male limudei kodesh teachers.


That answers... Rebbe = has Smicha.

Thanks.
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amother




Turquoise


Post  Wed, Jul 17 2019, 10:26 pm
amother [ Cyan ] wrote:
While I definitely say equal pay for equal work, supply and demand may be a factor as is a difference in degrees.
If you put out a job posting offering $x, for a woman 4th grade limudei kodesh teacher, or a secular studies teacher, you may get 10 or 15 qualified applicants. You put out an add for a 4th grade boys Rebbe, you may get 2, and they may come with salary demands/coming from another school with a salary that you needs to be meet or exceeded and many of the women applicants are either SAHs going back to work, or primarily interested in working in that school for their children to get a tuition break.
The Rebbeyim also may have more schooling/degrees.
If two women both teach 2nd grade for the same number of years, and one has a masters degree +30 in education and one only has a BA, I wouldn't expect that they make the same salary.

Listen, I would love for them to pay everyone a great identical salary, but we are dealing with a budget and tuition can't (shouldn't) go higher.

2 applicants for a 4th grade rebbe ?? My local school has approx 200 applicants for such jobs with men willing to
Commute 2 hours .
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