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Do Rebbes or male teachers make more than female teachers?
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amother




OP


Post  Thu, Jul 18 2019, 2:43 am
[quote="amother [ Aqua ]"]I’m worried about the OP. Is there a reason you started this thread?

Why are you worried about me? What

I started this thread for the reason stated: I had heard that women make less than men in our school and I was wondering if others knew of similar circumstances.
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notshanarishona




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jul 18 2019, 2:54 am
Yes , in every school I have worked at the rebeiim start out earning at least 10k more than the women. I had a relative doing the same hours and position as me , while I had a m.ed and 10 years experience and it was his first year and he made 15k more . I think unfortunately it is more common in right wing schools .
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Rappel




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jul 18 2019, 3:27 am
I originally thought this thread was a joke. Now I'm nauseated
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amother




Fuchsia


Post  Thu, Jul 18 2019, 3:59 am
Every religion has patriarchal structures. Are you guys really surprised about this? Men will ALWAYS use the power religion gives them. Why wouldn't they? You think they won't put themselves first because... They're rabbis? Puhlease.
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amother




Fuchsia


Post  Thu, Jul 18 2019, 4:01 am
creditcards wrote:
That's the way it usually works. Women are pregnant, have babies, need to stay home when a child is sick. It's much harder to employ women.


That's funny. I work with nonjews only and one of my male colleagues requested 9 months off because his wife had a baby and he wants to stay home with the baby.
His wife will stay home 3 months and then go back to work. Very Happy
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amother




Pink


Post  Thu, Jul 18 2019, 4:08 am
creditcards wrote:
That's the way it usually works. Women are pregnant, have babies, need to stay home when a child is sick. It's much harder to employ women.


That's why unadulterated capitalism with no reigns is so bad.
Yes, women have babies, and that may affect their work. Society needs women to have babies. Since it is in society's best interest that women have babies, they also need to protect women from being discriminated against for exactly this.
That is one reason (among others) why it is illegal to pay women less, or discriminate against them when hiring.
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Aylat




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jul 18 2019, 7:41 am
Rappel wrote:
I originally thought this thread was a joke. Now I'm nauseated


I'm with you. This is appalling. I'm so surprised at some of the posters who seem to be trying to justify it.
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amother




Ecru


Post  Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:44 pm
As a teacher, I can share my personal experience.

I currently work in a modern orthodox school (co-ed) where gender has no effect on one’s salary; salary is dependent on whether you teach full time or part time, the number of years you have taught, and your level of education + professional development credits (smicha places you on the same level as someone with a PhD).

However, I previously worked at a Bais Yaakov, where male teachers (we had two—both taught Halacha) absolutely were paid more than the female teachers. And I mean by the period (which was how one’s salary was calculated), so one cannot argue that was because they taught more than the female teachers (which wasn’t the case anyway). Furthermore, single teachers were paid less than married teachers. I say that as someone who was single when I taught there and my (younger) married friend—who had not yet completed her degree and had zero teaching experience or much job experience at all—was offered a starting salary equal to my current salary at the time. And that was after eight years of teaching at that school (including several raises) and two masters degrees.

I am not an administrator so I can’t say with absolutely certainty WHY this is the case, but I think it boils down to sexism and marriage-ism (sorry, can’t think of an actual term to describe it). I don’t think it’s an issue of supply and demand—I think it’s considered to be “unkavodik” to offer a man a low salary, but appropriate of a woman and, even more so, a single woman (whether she is 19 and straight out of seminary or 30 with experience and degrees).

Some might argue that men need the money more to support their families but I don’t think that is a fair way of determining one’s salary (and it’s probably not even legal). As others have pointed out, many female teachers are the main breadwinner in their family because their husband is in kollel, and there are single women who have to support themselves while there are married women who still are supported by their families.
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amother




Cyan


Post  Thu, Jul 18 2019, 1:22 pm
amother [ Ecru ] wrote:
As a teacher, I can share my personal experience.

I currently work in a modern orthodox school (co-ed) where gender has no effect on one’s salary; salary is dependent on whether you teach full time or part time, the number of years you have taught, and your level of education + professional development credits (smicha places you on the same level as someone with a PhD).

However, I previously worked at a Bais Yaakov, where male teachers (we had two—both taught Halacha) absolutely were paid more than the female teachers. And I mean by the period (which was how one’s salary was calculated), so one cannot argue that was because they taught more than the female teachers (which wasn’t the case anyway). Furthermore, single teachers were paid less than married teachers. I say that as someone who was single when I taught there and my (younger) married friend—who had not yet completed her degree and had zero teaching experience or much job experience at all—was offered a starting salary equal to my current salary at the time. And that was after eight years of teaching at that school (including several raises) and two masters degrees.

I am not an administrator so I can’t say with absolutely certainty WHY this is the case, but I think it boils down to sexism and marriage-ism (sorry, can’t think of an actual term to describe it). I don’t think it’s an issue of supply and demand—I think it’s considered to be “unkavodik” to offer a man a low salary, but appropriate of a woman and, even more so, a single woman (whether she is 19 and straight out of seminary or 30 with experience and degrees).

Some might argue that men need the money more to support their families but I don’t think that is a fair way of determining one’s salary (and it’s probably not even legal). As others have pointed out, many female teachers are the main breadwinner in their family because their husband is in kollel, and there are single women who have to support themselves while there are married women who still are supported by their families.


I am so happy to hear that the co-ed MO day school pays equal pay for equal work!

Teachers work really hard and we entrust them with our most precious gifts, our children. They deserve to be paid well and fairly.
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amother




Blush


Post  Thu, Jul 18 2019, 1:30 pm
amother [ Cyan ] wrote:
I am so happy to hear that the co-ed MO day school pays equal pay for equal work!

Teachers work really hard and we entrust them with our most precious gifts, our children. They deserve to be paid well and fairly.


Would seem that in the Rebbe vs teacher model - forget the hours, the work is different.
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iluvy




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jul 18 2019, 1:46 pm
amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:


creditcards wrote:

That's the way it usually works. Women are pregnant, have babies, need to stay home when a child is sick. It's much harder to employ women.


That's funny. I work with nonjews only and one of my male colleagues requested 9 months off because his wife had a baby and he wants to stay home with the baby.
His wife will stay home 3 months and then go back to work. Very Happy


This reminds me of a department meeting where I and two male colleagues were congratulated on having babies. The men were still out on leave - they took six months. I - the only one who had the baby with my body - was sitting there three weeks later.
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princessleah




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jul 19 2019, 3:05 pm
The structure might also be putting women at a disadvantage-- by definition, most of the Rebbeim will have a "higher" degree than the women-- smicha. And the woman will earn less because they are not eligible to earn that degree. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I have the idea that most women outside of MO are not getting PhD's in education or Jewish studies and then going to teach in the day schools.

30 years ago when my mother was teaching in a MO co-ed school, she was definitely making less than her male colleagues. She taught Chumash, Navi, and Hebrew; they taught Chumash, Navi, and Talmud. They had "higher" degrees than her. She finally took parsonage one year-- and got audited by the IRS because she wasn't clergy. I'm glad things are changing a little bit.
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amother




Taupe


Post  Fri, Jul 19 2019, 3:58 pm
amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

Furthermore, single teachers were paid less than married teachers. I say that as someone who was single when I taught there and my (younger) married friend—who had not yet completed her degree and had zero teaching experience or much job experience at all—was offered a starting salary equal to my current salary at the time. And that was after eight years of teaching at that school (including several raises) and two masters degrees.
I think it boils down to... marriage-ism.

There's a running joke in Lakewood that a teacher just requires a "MRS" degree in order to teach in Lakewood.(Mrs. before her name) In other words they need a sheitel on their head. A lkwd school would rather hire a newly married Lakewood girl who didn't have any experience or degrees than my single friend who had been teaching for 8 years previously and had a master's degree! Can't Believe It Can't Believe It
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amother




Cerulean


Post  Fri, Jul 19 2019, 7:38 pm
amother [ Pink ] wrote:
That's why unadulterated capitalism with no reigns is so bad.
Yes, women have babies, and that may affect their work. Society needs women to have babies. Since it is in society's best interest that women have babies, they also need to protect women from being discriminated against for exactly this.
That is one reason (among others) why it is illegal to pay women less, or discriminate against them when hiring.


Like I said earlier, this is NOT capitalism or the free market at work, at least not in some communities. The schools got together and created a monopoly, which is not the right word, but I can't think of a better one. Though it's true that in these communities Rebbeim do work more hours than Morahs. Also, I would think it's harder to teach boys than girls...
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amother




Sienna


Post  Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:02 pm
The schools prioritize on who they actually pay. One school wanted to take a merit raise away from me because they said I didn't need the money.

Another school I worked in first paid the teachers whose husband's were learning. By Pesach, they gave me a check. I got paid probably because they assumed I needed it more than a single who didn't have Pesach expenses. I ran into a single teacher who was crying because she couldn't make her car payment, and her parents couldn't help her because they had Pesach expenses. I directed the school to give her my check.

The schools have no business looking into employees' pockets to see who needs the money more.
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amother




Orange


Post  Sun, Jul 21 2019, 12:03 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I just heard from another mother that male teachers for limudei kodesh make more than female teachers (our school is co-ed in younger grades). Does anyone know such a thing to be true?

Without reading the whole thread
I asked my boys yehsiva to match my girls bais yaakov scholarship and the executive director. replied:
You need to pay us more because we need to pay the rebbeim more than the moros at BY are getting BECAUSE ITS A CHAUVINISTIC SOCIETY
I was ready to pull my sons right then and there. (But my husband didnt want me to)
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amother




Natural


Post  Sun, Jul 21 2019, 10:11 am
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
Without reading the whole thread
I asked my boys yehsiva to match my girls bais yaakov scholarship and the executive director. replied:
You need to pay us more because we need to pay the rebbeim more than the moros at BY are getting BECAUSE ITS A CHAUVINISTIC SOCIETY
I was ready to pull my sons right then and there. (But my husband didnt want me to)


So, while its unfair and maybe illegal...the fact is that unless parents pay much more in tuition, the schools cant pay women more. Its all about money. Furthermore, my relative who works in public school gets paid same as the men, but they also do illegal things bec they treat the men with better conditions and dont give out the "extra" money earning positions legally (even though they put up a facade to make believe they are an equal opportunity employer)....

Its all about the money...yes, some schools with more tuition money may use it for other things and not for raises for female teachers.

However, rebbes deserve high salaries and so do the female teachers. But, because majority of parents in right wing schools are not paying enough tuition, there will never be enough for decent salaries for everyone. Schools also try to push certain female teachers out who are making too much (by accusing them/lying) and hire new teachers who are paid much less. So too, schools let the rich board members kids defy rules/bully etc...and get away with things others cant.

Schools say they "care" about all kids and....but no, the reality is schools
Dont care, they do illegal things bec. Everyone favors some ppl over others whether male over female, shachar over lavan etc...

But, schools do a lot of dishonest/"things that dont pas" but at times its driven by money and other times, they do it regardless bec there will always be biases ....in my non jewish work environment, they favor men over women too.
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