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-> Working Women
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amother
Tan
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 Tue, Jul 30 2019, 5:54 pm
| amother [ Violet ] wrote: | Really? And who's watching your kids? Who waits with them by the bus stop, who sees them when they come home, who does homework with them, who kisses their booboos?
You're making it sound as if childrearing can just be outsourced, and that is just not true.
And don't forget to budget for the expensive therapy for the kids who were raised without parents. |
As I mentioned, a career in law is excellent as far as flexibility. It's possible to do all those things, take time off for maternity, go on your kids' class trips, never miss a siddur play, be home on y"t and a week before, set your own hours and still earn a decent income.
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ectomorph
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Tue, Jul 30 2019, 5:56 pm
[quote="amother [ Tan ]"] | amother [ Violet ] wrote: | Really? And who's watching your kids? Who waits with them by the bus stop, who sees them when they come home, who does homework with them, who kisses their booboos?
You're making it sound as if childrearing can just be outsourced, and that is just not true.
And don't forget to budget for the expensive therapy for the kids who were raised without parents.[/quote
As I mentioned, a career in law is excellent as far as flexibility. It's possible to do all those things, take time off for maternity, go on your kids' class trips, never miss a siddur play, be home on y"t and a week before, set your own hours and still earn a decent income. |
Possible, but not probable. Hence why people don't recommend it.
Most people struggle to get any lawyer job out of law school, let alone a lifestyle job.
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Cookiegirl
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Tue, Jul 30 2019, 5:56 pm
| amother [ Violet ] wrote: | Really? And who's watching your kids? Who waits with them by the bus stop, who sees them when they come home, who does homework with them, who kisses their booboos?
You're making it sound as if childrearing can just be outsourced, and that is just not true.
And don't forget to budget for the expensive therapy for the kids who were raised without parents. |
This is offensive to working mothers of all kinds. If I were a lawyer, and you were not anonymous, perhaps I could sue you for slander... 
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amother
Tan
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Tue, Jul 30 2019, 6:06 pm
| ectomorph wrote: | Possible, but not probable. Hence why people don't recommend it.
Most people struggle to get any lawyer job out of law school, let alone a lifestyle job. |
You're right, what I described is not for right out of law school. But it is not an unrealistic 3-5 year plan imo, depending of course on various factors.
And if this is the 3-5 year plan, then don't look for a lifestyle job out of law school, and don't look for a big law job. Look for a job with a solo or small firm where you'll learn how to run a law firm, how to advertise, how to negotiate a fee, etc.
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amother
Violet
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Tue, Jul 30 2019, 6:12 pm
| Cookiegirl wrote: | | This is offensive to working mothers of all kinds. If I were a lawyer, and you were not anonymous, perhaps I could sue you for slander... |
I was responding to a poster who said that it's normal for a mother of a frum family to work 60 hours a week. Only if someone else - such as a grandparent or the husband - is offering to raise the children, otherwise, no, I stand by what I said. I'm sorry if you find the truth offensive.
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ectomorph
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Tue, Jul 30 2019, 6:24 pm
| amother [ Tan ] wrote: | You're right, what I described is not for right out of law school. But it is not an unrealistic 3-5 year plan imo, depending of course on various factors.
And if this is the 3-5 year plan, then don't look for a lifestyle job out of law school, and don't look for a big law job. Look for a job with a solo or small firm where you'll learn how to run a law firm, how to advertise, how to negotiate a fee, etc. |
The "various factors" are a 95th or higher percentile LSAT and scoring in the top third of your class in a curved high ranking school. Every one enters law school expecting to beat the curve.
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amother
Sapphire
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Tue, Jul 30 2019, 6:26 pm
Please do not delude women into thinking law is a perfectly flexible career. maybe you are lucky but most people even in mid range firms have to put in a ton of hours. to the lawyer who pays minimally for babysitting can I ask how? the average jewish daycare/playgroup is 9-3 who is dropping off your child when you run to catch the bus to the city or picking up and then watching your child from 3-7 when you are home? and those are on the good days!!!! what happens when you are on a project and come home at 10 pm? what happens on all those yeshiva days that there is a snow day or isru chag etc. at the very least in order for it to work on a practical level, unless you have a parent nearby, one would end up hiring full time help which costs a lot in addition to the (full) yeshiva tuitions and playgroups. who is making dinner when you come home at 7-9 pm and what are your kids eating? etc etc. if you are hiring full time help you wont be taking home that much unless you work in big law and have "no life". I didnt say women cannot have careers but expecting a woman with bad morning sickness to pull these kind of hours day after day and come home to little kids is not realistic to the majority. you may be the exception but lifestyle law jobs that also pay well are
extremely hard to come by.
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ectomorph
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Tue, Jul 30 2019, 6:26 pm
The issue is that unlike other fields where jobs are clearly defined and available to the average student, law jobs are only available to the top 5% of the entire law student population.
What do you call the lowest ranked MD? Dr. What do you call the lowest ranked lawyer? Unemployed or secretary.
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ectomorph
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Tue, Jul 30 2019, 6:28 pm
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I have several female lawyer friends. None have flexibility, none earn more than 60k. What you're describing is the rare exception or someone who started working before the 2007 crash.
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Cookiegirl
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Tue, Jul 30 2019, 6:52 pm
| amother [ Violet ] wrote: | | I was responding to a poster who said that it's normal for a mother of a frum family to work 60 hours a week. Only if someone else - such as a grandparent or the husband - is offering to raise the children, otherwise, no, I stand by what I said. I'm sorry if you find the truth offensive. |
I worked similar hours, or more (although not straight through the year, but probably more than half the year between all the deadlines) as an accountant, while my children were growing up. It's not everyone's truth, by a long shot...
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amother
Tan
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Tue, Jul 30 2019, 6:57 pm
| ectomorph wrote: | | The "various factors" are a 95th or higher percentile LSAT and scoring in the top third of your class in a curved high ranking school. Every one enters law school expecting to beat the curve. |
None of that describes me, but, per your later post, I did graduate prior to 2007.
But again, I have a sibling who graduated just a couple years ago from a low tier school not anywhere near the top of the class, who now works for a small firm and has enough experience to go out on her own if she chooses. She found the first job through a mutual law school friend who didn't care about grades or class ranking. I think the general advice re job searching is to network, and that applies here as well.
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amother
Lime
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Tue, Jul 30 2019, 7:08 pm
| amother [ Sapphire ] wrote: | Please do not delude women into thinking law is a perfectly flexible career. maybe you are lucky but most people even in mid range firms have to put in a ton of hours. to the lawyer who pays minimally for babysitting can I ask how? the average jewish daycare/playgroup is 9-3 who is dropping off your child when you run to catch the bus to the city or picking up and then watching your child from 3-7 when you are home? and those are on the good days!!!! what happens when you are on a project and come home at 10 pm? what happens on all those yeshiva days that there is a snow day or isru chag etc. at the very least in order for it to work on a practical level, unless you have a parent nearby, one would end up hiring full time help which costs a lot in addition to the (full) yeshiva tuitions and playgroups. who is making dinner when you come home at 7-9 pm and what are your kids eating? etc etc. if you are hiring full time help you wont be taking home that much unless you work in big law and have "no life". I didnt say women cannot have careers but expecting a woman with bad morning sickness to pull these kind of hours day after day and come home to little kids is not realistic to the majority. you may be the exception but lifestyle law jobs that also pay well are
extremely hard to come by. |
I'm not interested in the mommy wars. I'm also not very interested in going into details of my life. I'm also not interested in arguing with the wives of first year associates or non lawyers who really don't know the market. Ever heard of telework? Ever heard of flexible hours? I spent many years working 60+ hours, but I did it when my family didn't need me. Maybe it meant much less sleep and downtime, but it worked. I definitely know frum females who after a few years are making a good salary in a lifestyle job. Many work 9-5. I admit I am lucky. bH I did well in law school. My husband helped in big law. I was never motivated to be a partner and I left at a certain hour but was always teleworking later. Yes, there are plenty of unemployed lawyers. There are plenty of lawyers at low salaries. BH it's worked for me and works for the frum lawyers I know. And I went to law school at the crash.
That's all I'm saying on the thread. If you seriously are considering law school, you are welcome to set up an anonymous email. If you are just looking to start mommy wars or say that my life doesn't exist, I'm not interested. I have to resume taking care of my family and working tonight.
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amother
Cobalt
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Tue, Jul 30 2019, 7:15 pm
| amother [ Lime ] wrote: | I'm not interested in the mommy wars. I'm also not very interested in going into details of my life. I'm also not interested in arguing with the wives of first year associates or non lawyers who really don't know the market. Ever heard of telework? Ever heard of flexible hours? I spent many years working 60+ hours, but I did it when my family didn't need me. Maybe it meant much less sleep and downtime, but it worked. I definitely know frum females who after a few years are making a good salary in a lifestyle job. Many work 9-5. I admit I am lucky. bH I did well in law school. My husband helped in big law. I was never motivated to be a partner and I left at a certain hour but was always teleworking later. Yes, there are plenty of unemployed lawyers. There are plenty of lawyers at low salaries. BH it's worked for me and works for the frum lawyers I know. And I went to law school at the crash.
That's all I'm saying on the thread. If you seriously are considering law school, you are welcome to set up an anonymous email. If you are just looking to start mommy wars or say that my life doesn't exist, I'm not interested. I have to resume taking care of my family and working tonight. | pls email me sleighteranonjunejuly@gmail.com
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ectomorph
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Tue, Jul 30 2019, 7:16 pm
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Of course it exists. But it is not easy or achievable for many. Especially if they can't get a decent LSAT.
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amother
Hotpink
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Tue, Jul 30 2019, 8:36 pm
| amother [ Violet ] wrote: | Really? And who's watching your kids? Who waits with them by the bus stop, who sees them when they come home, who does homework with them, who kisses their booboos?
You're making it sound as if childrearing can just be outsourced, and that is just not true.
And don't forget to budget for the expensive therapy for the kids who were raised without parents. |
Oh so u seem to be the type that "needs" to work part time or be a sahm and then take a tuition break ....or maybe ur dh is working and earning enough but for single moms or those whose dhs dont make enough then working full time is not a choice!!!
U never heard of hiring someone to take kids to bus stop and pick them up after and then stay there in evening until parent returns at around 7??? In addition, although I work long hrs, I am able to get home to put my kids in..and then continue working from hime til late, its a choice hashem made for me bec I wont have money otherwise...
And telling me kids need therapy bec parents are working...well then u just bashed kollel moms who choose to work to support husbands who learn...yes learning is important and I have nothing against it but dont act like a parent who works late is ruining their kids...thats an assumption from someone who doesnt understand that some women dont have $ "growing on trees" ...
Are u saying moms shouldnt have many kids bec even as a sahm their kids woukd need therapy bec they are not "parenting their kids" bec they are so busy with their babies every yr who is really focusinh on the other kids???
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amother
Wine
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 9:07 am
I would just like to point out that just like every other field, law is nuanced.
You have to have a clear goal going into law school or you will end up floundering. Do you want to work in big law and make 200,000+ right out of college (including bonus)? If you do, then you have to go to the best school to get the best chance, even if that means more student debt. Perhaps you will be able to get a big law job from a lower ranked school with a scholarship, I don't know how bright you are.
If you are looking for a family friendly law job, then figure out what credentials you need to get a decent 9-5 with adequate pay (think ~80K).
Or you can do a combination, which is what I assume most people do. Start in big law, make the big money, pay down debt, make the right connections and then migrate to a more chilled and less intense practice where you can prioritize your family.
No matter what profession you go into, being a working mother (especially a frum working mother) is difficult. Don't expect your coworkers to understand shabbos, having children at a "young" age and yom tov. That being said, working outside the home can be extremely fulfilling and can also bring in much needed financial security. Don't let anyone tell you how to live your life, but please make sure that you think your choices through.
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amother
Khaki
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 9:13 am
| amother [ Sapphire ] wrote: | Please do not delude women into thinking law is a perfectly flexible career. maybe you are lucky but most people even in mid range firms have to put in a ton of hours. to the lawyer who pays minimally for babysitting can I ask how? the average jewish daycare/playgroup is 9-3 who is dropping off your child when you run to catch the bus to the city or picking up and then watching your child from 3-7 when you are home? and those are on the good days!!!! what happens when you are on a project and come home at 10 pm? what happens on all those yeshiva days that there is a snow day or isru chag etc. at the very least in order for it to work on a practical level, unless you have a parent nearby, one would end up hiring full time help which costs a lot in addition to the (full) yeshiva tuitions and playgroups. who is making dinner when you come home at 7-9 pm and what are your kids eating? etc etc. if you are hiring full time help you wont be taking home that much unless you work in big law and have "no life". I didnt say women cannot have careers but expecting a woman with bad morning sickness to pull these kind of hours day after day and come home to little kids is not realistic to the majority. you may be the exception but lifestyle law jobs that also pay well are
extremely hard to come by. |
Do you work outside the home?
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lcraighten
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 9:19 am
| amother [ Sapphire ] wrote: | Please do not delude women into thinking law is a perfectly flexible career. maybe you are lucky but most people even in mid range firms have to put in a ton of hours. to the lawyer who pays minimally for babysitting can I ask how? the average jewish daycare/playgroup is 9-3 who is dropping off your child when you run to catch the bus to the city or picking up and then watching your child from 3-7 when you are home? and those are on the good days!!!! what happens when you are on a project and come home at 10 pm? what happens on all those yeshiva days that there is a snow day or isru chag etc. at the very least in order for it to work on a practical level, unless you have a parent nearby, one would end up hiring full time help which costs a lot in addition to the (full) yeshiva tuitions and playgroups. who is making dinner when you come home at 7-9 pm and what are your kids eating? etc etc. if you are hiring full time help you wont be taking home that much unless you work in big law and have "no life". I didnt say women cannot have careers but expecting a woman with bad morning sickness to pull these kind of hours day after day and come home to little kids is not realistic to the majority. you may be the exception but lifestyle law jobs that also pay well are
extremely hard to come by. |
Yes, working a full time job is hard, but that's not relegated to law only! Any working mother has to find a way to make it work. They need daycare with long hours (you can find) and usually have help from family and/or friends. Not everyone has the luxury of having only one full time income coming in. You are able to make dinner the night before and prep.
You also hit on a pet peeve of mine - WHY DOESN'T THE FRUM SCHOOL SYSTEM SUPPORT WORKING MOMS!!
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amother
Mustard
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 9:30 am
| amother [ Hotpink ] wrote: | Oh so u seem to be the type that "needs" to work part time or be a sahm and then take a tuition break ....or maybe ur dh is working and earning enough but for single moms or those whose dhs dont make enough then working full time is not a choice!!!
U never heard of hiring someone to take kids to bus stop and pick them up after and then stay there in evening until parent returns at around 7??? In addition, although I work long hrs, I am able to get home to put my kids in..and then continue working from hime til late, its a choice hashem made for me bec I wont have money otherwise...
And telling me kids need therapy bec parents are working...well then u just bashed kollel moms who choose to work to support husbands who learn...yes learning is important and I have nothing against it but dont act like a parent who works late is ruining their kids...thats an assumption from someone who doesnt understand that some women dont have $ "growing on trees" ...
Are u saying moms shouldnt have many kids bec even as a sahm their kids woukd need therapy bec they are not "parenting their kids" bec they are so busy with their babies every yr who is really focusinh on the other kids??? |
I'm all for working moms but this situation doesn't sound like it would work! Hiring someone to put kids on a bus and start with them until 7? That's when b young kids are going to bed so basically saying don't see your kids. For many that is not an option. I'm happy you are able to find peace in that kind of lifestyle and that your kids are going well.
Also this discussion sounds like a more yeshivish person having with a MO mom. For a yeshivish mother were talking prob a few more kids and substantially lower tuition. A job like this would be extremely rare in a yeshivish community and exist only if mom got married later or went back to school once babies were grown.
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amother
Violet
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 9:44 am
| amother [ Mustard ] wrote: | I'm all for working moms but this situation doesn't sound like it would work! Hiring someone to put kids on a bus and start with them until 7? That's when b young kids are going to bed so basically saying don't see your kids. For many that is not an option. I'm happy you are able to find peace in that kind of lifestyle and that your kids are going well.
Also this discussion sounds like a more yeshivish person having with a MO mom. For a yeshivish mother were talking prob a few more kids and substantially lower tuition. A job like this would be extremely rare in a yeshivish community and exist only if mom got married later or went back to school once babies were grown. |
I think this is what this argument is all about. I'm part of the yeshivish community and for many years my children's bus picked them up at 8:55 and dropped them off at 1:55 for primary and 3:55 other grades. And there is not too many options re babysitters and playgroups. I'm guessing the posters who were able to do it had a different infrastructure.
And in case anyone thinks that our way of life is so much cheaper; it may be for the first few years, but we have more children and then high school/seminary/bais medrash is very, very expensive - and we have to pay for chasunahs, support - I think it does even out in the end. Frum life is very expensive in every sector, I think.
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