Law School | Imamother

amother

Sapphire

Wed, Jul 31 2019, 6:56 am

amother [ Khaki ] wrote:

Do you work outside the home?

yes I do. in a job that is school based hours.
there is a difference between working full
time and working as a full time lawyer. my husband is in a midrange firm and if I had his job and my husband was working full time we would run into all of the problems mentioned. solving the problems by hiring full time help and extended hours etc etc and a driver to take kids to playgroup, we would come home with barely anything making it worthwhile to work full
time. to each his own but this is no way ideal for a mom of several kids.

amother

Khaki

Wed, Jul 31 2019, 7:46 am

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

there is a difference between working full time and working as a full time lawyer

What? There are lots of job out there that women work that are full time that have the same hours that lawyers have. I don't understand this 'special class'.

We don't know anything about OP and her life circumstances. Perhaps she actually wants to be a lawyer. Perhaps her husband has a flexible job.

You are projecting your life onto OP. Your arguments are against a woman working a schedule that doesn't allow her to be there for her children. This is not the special situation that only female lawyers find themselves in.

amother

Burlywood

Wed, Jul 31 2019, 8:00 am

Having a supportive husband has been crucial to my legal career. My husband is a lawyer too and he works full time, but he is his own boss and has a lot of flexibility.

My husband makes virtually all the meals (including kids' lunches for school), does most baths, does daycare dropoff and pickup, grocery shopping, and does all laundry. He is usually the one to work from home when a kid is sick. He does most doctors appointments and prescription pickups. He makes Shabbos and Yom Tov, and bakes challah with our kids to freeze for those days.

I drive the older kids to school, buy the kids clothes, diapers, and shoes online, arrange birthday party invites and playdates (often my husband has to go to them), manage the cleaning service, and pay bills online.

We also use daycare, before, and aftercare, day camp, and additional babysitting to fill in the gaps. Sometimes my husband's parents help out when they're in town, but we do not require their help. But my husband is home with all the kids by 5:30 p.m. on every weekday, regardless of when I get home. During my biglaw years, I was often unavailable for much or most of the day on Sunday, but now I spend almost every Sunday doing things with my family.

amother

Sapphire

Wed, Jul 31 2019, 8:23 am

amother [ Khaki ] wrote:

This has nothing to with lawyers per se. but it happens to be an extremely expensive degree as well so if you are not working full time, I would not recommend it. there are other full time jobs that are not as costly so if need be one can cut back on it and they don't need to feel like their student loans were wasted to make half of what a full time worker makes. in the case of someone who has 100-150k in student loans, I don't think it would make sense to work 9-5 and make 75k.
you are right that maybe her husband has a flexible job etc. maybe she wants to be a lawyer etc.
but in general, barring exceptional circumstances I dont see this as a great career for a woman who wants to balance family life and a full time job for the reasons I mentioned.
you are welcome to disagree. to each his own, I am allowed to state my opinions and the reasons behind it.

amother

Khaki

Wed, Jul 31 2019, 8:31 am

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

Its should be made clear then, that your perspective of a career is just limited to something that a person should do to bring money to her family. Completely disregards the possibility of actually picking to do something as a career because of a desire to do that thing.

Anyway - OP did not ask anybody here if she should be a lawyer.

amother

Tan

Wed, Jul 31 2019, 8:40 am

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

Just like Burlywood's dh is a lawyer with flexible hours, why can a frum woman not do the same?

amother

Sapphire

Wed, Jul 31 2019, 8:48 am

because you need to build up your career before having a flexible career. would you trust say a bankruptcy lawyer who graduated last year and wants 300 an hour?you need experience, connections, leads, contacts if you go privately and you generally cannot do that straight out of law
school. most people have to put in the hours and experience in a firm before having a flexible job or going private.

amother

Khaki

Wed, Jul 31 2019, 8:53 am

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

Can you imagine the possibility of working for a law firm that doesn't demand 80 hour weeks?

amother

Burlywood

Wed, Jul 31 2019, 8:53 am

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

This is, generally speaking, true. Some other things you've posted about the legal profession I think are inaccurate, but this one I agree with.

For a variety of other reasons as well, my husband's situation is somewhat unique and not representative. I was posting to give insight into how my career works and the household responsibilities that it has placed on my husband. The flexible husband could be a non lawyer just as well.

amother

Tan

Wed, Jul 31 2019, 9:00 am

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

True, and I said that already upthread. I would view it as a 3-5 year plan. The first 3-5 years, you may not have that flexibility and won't be earning your full career potential. But then, most, if not all, jobs won't have you earning the same income with 3 years of experience as you would at 5 or 10.

Tbh, I actually don't like practicing law. But what keeps me from leaving is the pay and the flexibility. I explored various other options, but nothing can compare in those 2 areas.

Law is certainly not for everyone, but if someone thinks that they would enjoy it and be good at, I disagree that pay and flexibility are reasons not to consider it.

amother

Hotpink

Wed, Jul 31 2019, 10:56 am

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

I'm all for working moms but this situation doesn't sound like it would work! Hiring someone to put kids on a bus and start with them until 7? That's when b young kids are going to bed so basically saying don't see your kids. For many that is not an option. I'm happy you are able to find peace in that kind of lifestyle and that your kids are going well.

Also this discussion sounds like a more yeshivish person having with a MO mom. For a yeshivish mother were talking prob a few more kids and substantially lower tuition. A job like this would be extremely rare in a yeshivish community and exist only if mom got married later or went back to school once babies were grown.

First of all, this is nothing to do with yeshivish but I will definitely say when my kids went to a more yeshivish school, my tuition was much higher and I was paying for moms on this site (maybe u??? ) who say thry cant work a higher paying job bec....and guess what?? They are not paying most tuition...

And, I want to say that if that mom who said "my kids would need therapy bec they are not being parented", well, then that is twisted bec would she tell parents(almost everyone, even sahms do this) who send their young 2 yr olds that they are not parenting???

and you said basically not seeing kids?? But, then maybe you shouldnt send your kids to school?? And, wat about dads who work long hrs???

No, its not a choice. I must work long hrs to make my salary to pay tuition...bec hashem decided my dh doesnt earn enough...not my plan at all..

By the way, as others pointed out this is not just lawyers, but it is other jobs too. I know obgyn who goes nights to deliver babies...and wen she was in residency, how much did she see her kids??? Will u say she is not "parenting"??

Op can be a lawyer and start out working long hrs few yrs and pay off loans. She can then work in a more flex job or from home like others I know. Most higher paying jobs start out with very long hrs until they get experience and can branch out to other flex options within that field.

amother

Green

Wed, Jul 31 2019, 11:01 am

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

I think this is what this argument is all about. I'm part of the yeshivish community and for many years my children's bus picked them up at 8:55 and dropped them off at 1:55 for primary and 3:55 other grades. And there is not too many options re babysitters and playgroups. I'm guessing the posters who were able to do it had a different infrastructure.

And in case anyone thinks that our way of life is so much cheaper; it may be for the first few years, but we have more children and then high school/seminary/bais medrash is very, very expensive - and we have to pay for chasunahs, support - I think it does even out in the end. Frum life is very expensive in every sector, I think.

Yeshivish may have a few more kids, but have you seen tuition costs for MO upper grades, high school, seminary, college, and we make weddings too. It’s very expensive.

MO families generally have two incomes to afford all the above.

amother

Sapphire

Wed, Jul 31 2019, 11:07 am

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

yes I would definitely say an ob gyn is not an ideal job for a mom with young kids (!!! do you disagree?) I never said it cant be done.

and there is a huge difference to putting your 3 year old in playgroup from 9-3 and being there after school rather than having them stay in extended care until 5 pm and having a driver pick them up after an exhausting day and then a babysitter who may not even be jewish, so you can stagger in at 730 pm to see them for 2 minutes. theres no need to get snippy, it is simply not healthy or ideal for these poor kids. not looking to start mommy wars, its common sense. you can argue all u want

amother

Khaki

Wed, Jul 31 2019, 11:46 am

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

Please spare me your ‘poor kids’ comment.. and your common sense.

Signed true full time working mother.

amother

Burlywood

Wed, Jul 31 2019, 11:55 am

amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:

Well, I got a 172 on practice LSAT today. My goal is 180. Not sure what I'll do with it - I don't want to do law - but it's fun to study for it anyway.

That's excellent, especially for a starting score.

If you can repeatably score in the 170's on old LSATs (actual former LSAT exams, not practice exams written by Kaplan or similar) under timed conditions, then you should be able to do similarly on the actual exam, unless you are prone to severe test anxiety.

Also, a test prep course would probably be worthless for you. Those are aimed at low to medium scorers. You should just take old LSATs under timed conditions, and then go over your mistakes and address any specific recurring issues.

Edit: if you don't want to practice law, don't go to law school. Unless you're independently wealthy like Kim Kardashian and can afford an expensive multi-year hobby. But you could be an LSAT tutor if you score high on the real thing.

amother

Cobalt

Wed, Jul 31 2019, 12:11 pm

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

yes, I've been taking timed lsats.

I am thinking to become a tutor.

amother

Tan

Wed, Jul 31 2019, 12:19 pm

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

With a score in the 170's, I would expect her to be able to get a significant scholarship somewhere