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-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
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amother
Sienna
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 Mon, Sep 02 2019, 4:00 am
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Ygw used to take everyone, to the point where the boarders brought so many problems into the school that the community didn't send anymore. They tightened up admission and I thought they did take Lakewood girls that didn't fit the mold as long as they would follow the rules. That's why I mentioned it. I thought there were still lkwd girls in the school. But it's not about the brand, it's just the community needs to educate our girls without boarders bringing major problems into the school.
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amother
Aquamarine
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 4:59 am
| byisrael wrote: |
LKWD needs to solve LKWD problems - to open schools that cater to different types IN LKWD. You can't expect small OOT communities that happen to be in driving distance to take all of LKWD students who aren't a perfect fit. There are to many - it's to much. |
This is the real problem. Lakewood doesn't have any schools for anyone who doesn't fit into the "Lakewood box". So the girls end up in schools they don't belong in, because they don't have a choice, and a lot of them are very troubled by the time they or their parents are ready for them to leave Lakewood. At that point you can't blame other schools for not wanting them.
We in Lakewood need to open schools for EVERY TYPE of girl, and we would have a lot less problems. The comments on the Ateres Tzipora thread about the people who have to change if they want schools to accept them are disgusting. In most frum cities these people would be welcomed with open arms, and considered from the frummer people around. Only in Lakewood are they considered practically OTD and they need to be shunned.
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amother
Sapphire
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 5:06 am
| amother [ Sienna ] wrote: | | Ygw used to take everyone, to the point where the boarders brought so many problems into the school that the community didn't send anymore. They tightened up admission and I thought they did take Lakewood girls that didn't fit the mold as long as they would follow the rules. That's why I mentioned it. I thought there were still lkwd girls in the school. But it's not about the brand, it's just the community needs to educate our girls without boarders bringing major problems into the school. |
Similarly, BBY took in many girls that other schools wouldn't accept. Every year the vaad would pressure them to accept more and more of these girls and because the owners of the school are truly good hearted people, they accepted them. But, as with the school you mention, this brought in major problems. School rules were a mockery and teachers literally weren't able to teach because of constant disruption. This wasn't a situation where there were a few girls at risk that the school refused to work with. There were way too many of them and the reality is that this isn't a school for at-risk teens.
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barbara1
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 5:56 am
[quote="amother [ Sapphire ]"]Similarly, BBY took in many girls that other schools wouldn't accept. Every year the vaad would pressure them to accept more and more of these girls and because the owners of the school are truly good hearted people, they accepted them. But, as with the school you mention, this brought in major problems. School rules were a mockery and teachers literally weren't able to teach because of constant disruption. This wasn't a situation where there were a few girls at risk that the school refused to work with. There were way too many of them and the reality is that this isn't a school for at-risk
Unless ur the principal at the school how would you know that every student that was thrown out was disruptive in class and at risk I heard otherwise so its its obviously not that black and white.but again I will reiterate that had this been ur own daughter u would be singing a whole different tune, and had this been Mrs habels or Rabbi Winklers own daughters they would be thinking 10000 times before they just throw out 40 girls onto the street.
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amother
Aquamarine
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 5:59 am
| amother [ Sapphire ] wrote: | | Similarly, BBY took in many girls that other schools wouldn't accept. Every year the vaad would pressure them to accept more and more of these girls and because the owners of the school are truly good hearted people, they accepted them. But, as with the school you mention, this brought in major problems. School rules were a mockery and teachers literally weren't able to teach because of constant disruption. This wasn't a situation where there were a few girls at risk that the school refused to work with. There were way too many of them and the reality is that this isn't a school for at-risk teens. |
I would love to know how many of them were already like this, and how many were only like this because of what they went through when they weren't accepted to any school. I'm not blaming BBY for this, it's the fault of all of us in Lakewood.
We are destroying our kids with our insistence on everyone fitting in the same small box. We are destroying our girls every year that girls aren't accepted into high schools until the last minute. We are destroying our boys by not having good high schools for the non-learners. We are destroying our kids by considering them "at risk" when they just want to dress a little different, watch a movie, listen to some "other music". We don't acknowledge that in most of the frum world our "at risk" kids would be considered regular, frum kids. And because of that they truly become AT RISK and many go completely OTD.
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barbara1
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 6:07 am
| amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote: | This is the real problem. Lakewood doesn't have any schools for anyone who doesn't fit into the "Lakewood box". So the girls end up in schools they don't belong in, because they don't have a choice, and a lot of them are very troubled by the time they or their parents are ready for them to leave Lakewood. At that point you can't blame other schools for not wanting them.
We in Lakewood need to open schools for EVERY TYPE of girl, and we would have a lot less problems. The comments on the Ateres Tzipora thread about the people who have to change if they want schools to accept them are disgusting. In most frum cities these people would be welcomed with open arms, and considered from the frummer people around. Only in Lakewood are they considered practically OTD and they need to be shunned. |
I agree 100% but not sure why this is not happening as bby and many other schools started this way, I started off here in Lakewood 20 years ago allot of schools were desperate to take anyone not sure what changed .I think one of the problems is that every 100 people feel superior than the next so every 100 people need a whole new school and infrastructure that's very expensive the solution would b opening up large city schools and consolidate allot of the expenses but this will never happen as its evident on this blog and many other blogs that we have serious issues that we cant tolerate someone thats a little different ,we only come together when it comes to fighting physical illness such as cancer or searching for people that are post in the sea but not when it comes to emotional or school issues we feelings someone elses problem not our problem .
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barbara1
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 6:11 am
| amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote: | I would love to know how many of them were already like this, and how many were only like this because of what they went through when they weren't accepted to any school. I'm not blaming BBY for this, it's the fault of all of us in Lakewood.
We are destroying our kids with our insistence on everyone fitting in the same small box. We are destroying our girls every year that girls aren't accepted into high schools until the last minute. We are destroying our boys by not having good high schools for the non-learners. We are destroying our kids by considering them "at risk" when they just want to dress a little different, watch a movie, listen to some "other music". We don't acknowledge that in most of the frum world our "at risk" kids would be considered regular, frum kids. And because of that they truly become AT RISK and many go completely OTD. |
I and many families made the huge mistake of moving to lakewood the problem is I moved here 20 years ago before the whole school situation started,most of these children are solid children that would thrive outside Lakewood in am accepting good environment, but like rabbi chaim abadie from minyan shilanu and rabbi wallerstien told my friend that lakewood is the worst place for children that are different.
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amother
Powderblue
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 6:29 am
| amother [ Sapphire ] wrote: | | Similarly, BBY took in many girls that other schools wouldn't accept. Every year the vaad would pressure them to accept more and more of these girls and because the owners of the school are truly good hearted people, they accepted them. But, as with the school you mention, this brought in major problems. School rules were a mockery and teachers literally weren't able to teach because of constant disruption. This wasn't a situation where there were a few girls at risk that the school refused to work with. There were way too many of them and the reality is that this isn't a school for at-risk teens. |
This! I’m very sorry for your experience. But bby has been fighting with the vaad for a few years trying to clean up its name and every year the Vaad said “next year you can go down to 1 class” they hired a new principle to clean up the school and than people get upset when she tries to do just that. For 3 years Mrs hebel has been trying to cut the class size to weed out the girls that don’t belong but the vaad wouldn’t let. This year they are finally doing it.
Again I don’t know who you are and I feel horrible for your situation but my daughter has been complaining of the same thing as the above bby parents since she got there. There are girls who disrupt, who don’t necessarily belong. When she hears who isn’t coming back she isn’t surprised- these are the girls who have the “bummy” name, the ones who cause trouble, dress/act how they want. I’m sure there are girls that she will be surprised are gone but as a totally jpf Lakewood family who is not super yeshivish or typical Lakewood we were not kicked out.
I feel for you OP - more than you know! I went through a similar situation a few years back with another child who had no school but I didn’t rant about the school system. I knew what I was getting into living in Lakewood. I cried, a lot! It’s a miserable place to be but I took my portion of the responsibility also. Everyone has tzaros and Lakewood is not a welcoming place to live. But you can’t blame a school for trying to better themselves according to the standard of the town. They don’t want to be on the lower end and they need to do what they can to raise themselves up.
Also I just want to mention that everyone knew Mrs hebel was brought in to turn the school around and raise the bar. It was the “word on the street” when she joined and everyone knew she’d been struggling since. It was just a matter of time until she put her foot down.
I know it’s hard to hear these things when you are hurting and I tried to say it kindly. I wasn’t going to post at all after you responded to the first bby supporter but I feel there has to be the other side posted here. Many parents are glad this day has come although we still feel horribly for those affected. But we need our daughters to be able to learn without disruption, without hearing things we don’t want them to hear. They shouldn’t be seeing fights between girls, etc it’s extremely traumatizing for a 9th or 10th grader from Lakewood to see these things.
I hope I didn’t come across mean or judgemental- again I know exactly where you are coming from. I wish you all the best and that in 1 year you’ll look back and see that this was a good thing- that she’s happier and healthier than she was at this point.
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amother
Sapphire
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 6:30 am
[quote="barbara1"] | amother [ Sapphire ] wrote: | Similarly, BBY took in many girls that other schools wouldn't accept. Every year the vaad would pressure them to accept more and more of these girls and because the owners of the school are truly good hearted people, they accepted them. But, as with the school you mention, this brought in major problems. School rules were a mockery and teachers literally weren't able to teach because of constant disruption. This wasn't a situation where there were a few girls at risk that the school refused to work with. There were way too many of them and the reality is that this isn't a school for at-risk
Unless ur the principal at the school how would you know that every student that was thrown out was disruptive in class and at risk I heard otherwise so its its obviously not that black and white.but again I will reiterate that had this been ur own daughter u would be singing a whole different tune, and had this been Mrs habels or Rabbi Winklers own daughters they would be thinking 10000 times before they just throw out 40 girls onto the street. |
I will reiterate. I know of a few problematic girls that they kept. They worked with them last year and continue to work with them. And none of them are yeshivish so your claims about who they chose to kick out just don't add up. Neither do your numbers.
As for Rabbi Winkler, I can't remain silent while you malign a man who is as kind hearted as they come. He often had to sit down and stop teaching his class because the girls wouldn't let him teach. Sometimes he just had to give up and leave before class was even over. When he would try to send out girls for misbehaving, they would just ignore him and stay in class! But he's the bad guy in all this right? Where is the responsibility of the parents and of the girls themselves? Why do parents think their child can act any way they want and then it's the school's fault for not putting up with it? This is a twisted mentality.
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barbara1
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 6:47 am
| amother [ Powderblue ] wrote: | This! I’m very sorry for your experience. But bby has been fighting with the vaad for a few years trying to clean up its name and every year the Vaad said “next year you can go down to 1 class” they hired a new principle to clean up the school and than people get upset when she tries to do just that. For 3 years Mrs hebel has been trying to cut the class size to weed out the girls that don’t belong but the vaad wouldn’t let. This year they are finally doing it.
Again I don’t know who you are and I feel horrible for your situation but my daughter has been complaining of the same thing as the above bby parents since she got there. There are girls who disrupt, who don’t necessarily belong. When she hears who isn’t coming back she isn’t surprised- these are the girls who have the “bummy” name, the ones who cause trouble, dress/act how they want. I’m sure there are girls that she will be surprised are gone but as a totally jpf Lakewood family who is not super yeshivish or typical Lakewood we were not kicked out.
I feel for you OP - more than you know! I went through a similar situation a few years back with another child who had no school but I didn’t rant about the school system. I knew what I was getting into living in Lakewood. I cried, a lot! It’s a miserable place to be but I took my portion of the responsibility also. Everyone has tzaros and Lakewood is not a welcoming place to live. But you can’t blame a school for trying to better themselves according to the standard of the town. They don’t want to be on the lower end and they need to do what they can to raise themselves up.
Also I just want to mention that everyone knew Mrs hebel was brought in to turn the school around and raise the bar. It was the “word on the street” when she joined and everyone knew she’d been struggling since. It was just a matter of time until she put her foot down.
I know it’s hard to hear these things when you are hurting and I tried to say it kindly. I wasn’t going to post at all after you responded to the first bby supporter but I feel there has to be the other side posted here. Many parents are glad this day has come although we still feel horribly for those affected. But we need our daughters to be able to learn without disruption, without hearing things we don’t want them to hear. They shouldn’t be seeing fights between girls, etc it’s extremely traumatizing for a 9th or 10th grader from Lakewood to see these things.
I hope I didn’t come across mean or judgemental- again I know exactly where you are coming from. I wish you all the best and that in 1 year you’ll look back and see that this was a good thing- that she’s happier and healthier than she was at this point. |
I appreciate your perspective and sensitivity and hope ur right, the problem is that only people like me and u that are going through this can relate to the pain I am enduring most other people are not capable of showing any empathy and I believe the schools should be showing more empathy as well,I would be crying all day had I been a principal and was forced to expel someone these are people's future that have to be approached with extreme sensitivity and compassion.
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amother
Amber
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 7:12 am
My kids were asked to go to another school at one point bec of "politics" and "rich kids rule". I told the principal "hashem will hold everyone in power accountable for the decisions they make".
My children did follow rules etc....
But, many parents who didnt experience "having no school for your child" just judge and say "well, they were kicked out bec they were bad....even calling them "bummy"...
How is this hatred and problems of "your "not frum enough" dd doesnt belong with my very frum dd" happen considering we just had tisha bav?? We just learned about sinas chinam.
We come together by tragedies like ppl who drowned....cancer etc...but when kids are thrown out its okay???? Where shld these kids go?? Are you saying "they are bummy, so go to public school"???look what happened to that girl rejected?? She overdosed and died!!
And, how could a principal argue with a vaad of rabbanim?? Is she a "rabbi"???
A policy of "we are only here to serve our community so we wont accept ur girls" is also sinas chinam!! When someone has cancer, nobody says "we only treat/help ppl in our town!" No! Everyone helps!!
Schools disgust me. I found bh a different school to send my children to(after a lot of tine and heartache). There are disruptive kids, but thats what teaching is about...dealing with all kids. .......
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amother
Smokey
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 7:14 am
The problem is that in a place like Lakewood, the minute a school welcomes kids that are a bit different - as we see with Ateres Tziporah, Yesodos Bais Yaakov, and BY of Western Monmouth County/ Ateres Bais Yaakov - nobody else wants to send there. And when enrollment is down, eventually the school suffers financially and closes down, or comes close to it.
I think it's by the grace of G-d that Tehilas Chaya Sara seems to be doing well.
Lakewood ain't gonna change, not as long as people are moving here in droves.
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amother
Sienna
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 7:40 am
| amother [ Amber ] wrote: |
A policy of "we are only here to serve our community so we wont accept ur girls" is also sinas chinam!! When someone has cancer, nobody says "we only treat/help ppl in our town!" No! Everyone helps!!
Schools disgust me. I found bh a different school to send my children to(after a lot of tine and heartache). There are disruptive kids, but thats what teaching is about...dealing with all kids. ....... |
It wasn't just disruptive kids. It was real major problems that needed a different type of school. It's a community school. It's designed to deal with a huge variety of girls, and I'm fine with that. But some behaviors really cross the line and hurt our children and when you only have one school, it's a real problem. I'm not talking about tznius or movies or disruptive behavior etc. I realize that all of you are in pain but I think it's fair to say that not every school is equipped for major issues and there needs to be schools that focus on kids who are really at risk and are designed to help them.
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amother
Sapphire
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 8:09 am
| amother [ Powderblue ] wrote: | This! I’m very sorry for your experience. But bby has been fighting with the vaad for a few years trying to clean up its name and every year the Vaad said “next year you can go down to 1 class” they hired a new principle to clean up the school and than people get upset when she tries to do just that. For 3 years Mrs hebel has been trying to cut the class size to weed out the girls that don’t belong but the vaad wouldn’t let. This year they are finally doing it.
Again I don’t know who you are and I feel horrible for your situation but my daughter has been complaining of the same thing as the above bby parents since she got there. There are girls who disrupt, who don’t necessarily belong. When she hears who isn’t coming back she isn’t surprised- these are the girls who have the “bummy” name, the ones who cause trouble, dress/act how they want. I’m sure there are girls that she will be surprised are gone but as a totally jpf Lakewood family who is not super yeshivish or typical Lakewood we were not kicked out.
I feel for you OP - more than you know! I went through a similar situation a few years back with another child who had no school but I didn’t rant about the school system. I knew what I was getting into living in Lakewood. I cried, a lot! It’s a miserable place to be but I took my portion of the responsibility also. Everyone has tzaros and Lakewood is not a welcoming place to live. But you can’t blame a school for trying to better themselves according to the standard of the town. They don’t want to be on the lower end and they need to do what they can to raise themselves up.
Also I just want to mention that everyone knew Mrs hebel was brought in to turn the school around and raise the bar. It was the “word on the street” when she joined and everyone knew she’d been struggling since. It was just a matter of time until she put her foot down.
I know it’s hard to hear these things when you are hurting and I tried to say it kindly. I wasn’t going to post at all after you responded to the first bby supporter but I feel there has to be the other side posted here. Many parents are glad this day has come although we still feel horribly for those affected. But we need our daughters to be able to learn without disruption, without hearing things we don’t want them to hear. They shouldn’t be seeing fights between girls, etc it’s extremely traumatizing for a 9th or 10th grader from Lakewood to see these things.
I hope I didn’t come across mean or judgemental- again I know exactly where you are coming from. I wish you all the best and that in 1 year you’ll look back and see that this was a good thing- that she’s happier and healthier than she was at this point. |
Thank you for writing this. That's the reason I responded too - because I couldn't stand to see the school portrayed so unfairly when they have done more than any other mainstream Lakewood high school. What's written online stays here for everyone to see even years later and if no one writes the other side of the story, people know only one narrative and believe that to be the truth.
Thank you also for being able to express your compassion better than I can. It's easy to jump to conclusions about me but the truth is that I had a child who was out of school for a VERY long time and it had nothing to do with bad behavior. I cried a lot at the time but eventually we found the most amazing school b'h and I'm so thankful for it.
I know first-hand how unfair and disgusting many schools can be. I'd be the last person to deny it after what we went through, but BBY isn't one of those schools. This isn't a case of some girls being a little different so they're kicked out. BBY is a more accepting school but the situation became untenable. If a school has no rules and no learning, it's not a school. They have a responsibility to the girls who do want to follow rules and learn.
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amother
Lemon
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 8:25 am
| barbara1 wrote: | | I and many families made the huge mistake of moving to lakewood the problem is I moved here 20 years ago before the whole school situation started,most of these children are solid children that would thrive outside Lakewood in am accepting good environment, but like rabbi chaim abadie from minyan shilanu and rabbi wallerstien told my friend that lakewood is the worst place for children that are different. |
I'm a Lakewood parent with older children who were toe-the-line, well-behaved kids who managed in the system, and now I have one child in upper elementary school who is more sensitive, high-strung, and sometimes snarky and difficult and annoying and chutzpadik if she feels someone is treating her unfairly...she has a very strong sense of justice which doesn't always work well with those in authority...I love her to pieces and I am so scared. I know she'll likely get into high school (if we can just get thru upper elementary okay) because she's a sibling, but will she survive it? Will she be okay if she needs some things to be a little different, she needs the space to be herself?
My heart goes out to you and all the girls from BBY who were asked to leave (I heard that it was 18 girls, and that there are others who were given warnings.) I will daven for all of them, as I do for my own child.
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sequoia
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 8:29 am
Forgive me, but... Bruriah is an excellent school.
What is the tragedy here?
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amother
Amber
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 8:31 am
| amother [ Sienna ] wrote: | | It wasn't just disruptive kids. It was real major problems that needed a different type of school. It's a community school. It's designed to deal with a huge variety of girls, and I'm fine with that. But some behaviors really cross the line and hurt our children and when you only have one school, it's a real problem. I'm not talking about tznius or movies or disruptive behavior etc. I realize that all of you are in pain but I think it's fair to say that not every school is equipped for major issues and there needs to be schools that focus on kids who are really at risk and are designed to help them. |
You have a good point, but you also dont!! What I mean is...since there is no school for these kids, are you opening one or are you saying that they shld go to public school???
Also, lets not deny that ppl with a lot of $, whose kids are disrespectful and may have physical bullying behaviors are allowed to "pay their way" into schools and majority of time wont be kicked out....so its not as simple as you make it seem that schools are all getting rid of "certain kids".....bec ppl with connections/"yichus" and $ would rarely have their "problem" kids "asked to leave". Theres a lot of bias and its not simple....
But, again, shld these kids go to public school??
I feel for you, op.
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Chayalle
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 8:35 am
| amother [ Smokey ] wrote: | The problem is that in a place like Lakewood, the minute a school welcomes kids that are a bit different - as we see with Ateres Tziporah, Yesodos Bais Yaakov, and BY of Western Monmouth County/ Ateres Bais Yaakov - nobody else wants to send there. And when enrollment is down, eventually the school suffers financially and closes down, or comes close to it.
I think it's by the grace of G-d that Tehilas Chaya Sara seems to be doing well.
Lakewood ain't gonna change, not as long as people are moving here in droves. |
To be honest, I think TCS has been blessed with amazing siyaata dishmaya because when another school whose name I won't mention broke away from them and tried to ruin them, they remained quiet and handled it with grace and class.
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Chayalle
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 8:36 am
| sequoia wrote: | Forgive me, but... Bruriah is an excellent school.
What is the tragedy here? |
The tragedy is a girl who has to find a new high school in the middle of high school, and can't be accommodated in her own city of many schools.
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amother
Sienna
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Mon, Sep 02 2019, 8:49 am
| amother [ Amber ] wrote: | You have a good point, but you also dont!! What I mean is...since there is no school for these kids, are you opening one or are you saying that they shld go to public school???
Also, lets not deny that ppl with a lot of $, whose kids are disrespectful and may have physical bullying behaviors are allowed to "pay their way" into schools and majority of time wont be kicked out....so its not as simple as you make it seem that schools are all getting rid of "certain kids".....bec ppl with connections/"yichus" and $ would rarely have their "problem" kids "asked to leave". Theres a lot of bias and its not simple....
But, again, shld these kids go to public school??
I feel for you, op. |
I don't live in lkwd as I said. I'm just saying that lkwd needs to address these problems and have schools that help these people. I'm not saying that have to go to Public school. But it's unfair to say that a single school 3-4 hours away from lkwd must accept kids that any community even a modern one would consider otd and exhibiting dangerous behavior especially when the school isn't designed to handle it. And to clarify, I'm not referring to op or the other girls discussed. I even recommended the school to op.
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