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-> Judaism
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amother
Orchid
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 Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:25 am
| amother [ Cerise ] wrote: | | The depiction of woman in the torah and gemara is overwhelmingly that we are inferior beings. I don't need to list a dozen examples. This is not about twisting the truth to get the result we would like. This is simply a matter of taking the words at face value. Sorry. |
Thank you for bringing this up. For people who think otherwise, we are not in anyway
denigrating Torah and mitzvos and our venerated Rabbis.
We are exploring our role as a observant women and how to see ourselves in the context of Torah.
I for one love Judaism and Torah and mitzvos, and learn halacha, nach, Tanya and mussar every day of my life but I dislike when women start talking like ten year olds when quoting gemara.
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amother
Tan
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Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:35 am
Honestly, I think that a lot of this has to do with how you want to perceive the Torah. If you want to find ways to be insulted, 'proofs' that the Torah looks down on women, etc you can find it. That doesn't mean that that's the authentic Jewish perspective. And whether we like it or not, a lot of this traces back to a view on women given to us by feminists which doesn't really jive with Torah.
That said, OP I think you need to keep in mind that there's a global tafkid for women, that's a general concept, and then there's the individual tafkid. I personally do not find it insulting that a big part of a woman (global concept)'s tafkid has to do with her roles as wife and mother. This doesn't mean that you're a failure if you're not a wife or mother, just that your individual tafkid, for whatever reason, differs from the general tafkid. I think it makes a lot of sense to have the role of one partner to be more focused on the kids - someone has to - and the Torah fully accommodates for that ie I understand you'll be taking care of your kids or your house etc that's exactly what I want you to do, so no you won't be obligated in lots of the mitzvos, your spiritual responsibility will be this instead. We're not like the Muslims who force a woman who just had a csection to kneel on the floor to pray while screaming in pain (true story). I'm not saying it's easy - I'm more intellectually minded and struggle with this sometimes too as it doesn't feel as spiritual and look as 'holy' but I also know that I have a valued and respected and special job. I also know that there is lots of room for female intellectuality in Judiaism with lots of precedents over the generations.
Op, I don't think your role is 'only' to enable your husband's Torah learning. I think that may be part of it, but it's really to be a supportive wife for whatever spiritual endeavors your husband persues(or just a supportive wife- period). And if you don't have a husband or kids, do your own learning. But that's just a part of it - there's more to the general tafkid for women and definitely more for your personal individual tafkid.
Also, while this isn't the pretty answer, I did learn that part of Chava's curse was that she would be seen as second - not inferior or low, and not second in Hashem's eyes, but second in society's eyes. But really, true Torah men have a lot of respect and admiration for their women and view them as the equal partners they are (not same but equal - there's a difference) and when you've had a chance to be around men and women like that you have an easier time understanding.
Hope this helps. I don't profess to know all the answers just sharing my understanding (based on what I've learned and experienced - I aplolgize I really do not have a good head for remembering sources just concepts so I can't quote you sources I just know that there are)
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amother
Orchid
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Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:36 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | I'm not Chabad, though. Tanya is not necessarily accepted in the mainstream. |
(Neither am I, but in our chasidus it is learned according to a calendar and finished in less than a year.)
I am sure there is something else out there for you to learn in your intellectual quest.
I wish posters would make suggestions.
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amother
Tan
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Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:38 am
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*and we don't take things only at face value when it comes to learning Torah (one of the differences between Judiaism and Christianity) you have to learn it with commentaries, direction, context, etc
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amother
Seagreen
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Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:43 am
Tan that was a beautiful post!
To be honest, I'm not even understanding the question.
There are 613 mitzvos in the Torah. Some are done by cohanim, some by leviim, some (such as divorce) hopefully by very few.
Women can and do, plenty plenty of mitzvos. At the minimum, we do chesed all day long. We daven. We do other mitzvos.
But this particar mitzvah, talmud Torah, we get a share in indirectly, for most.
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amother
OP
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Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:53 am
| amother [ Tan ] wrote: | Honestly, I think that a lot of this has to do with how you want to perceive the Torah. If you want to find ways to be insulted, 'proofs' that the Torah looks down on women, etc you can find it. That doesn't mean that that's the authentic Jewish perspective. And whether we like it or not, a lot of this traces back to a view on women given to us by feminists which doesn't really jive with Torah.
That said, OP I think you need to keep in mind that there's a global tafkid for women, that's a general concept, and then there's the individual tafkid. I personally do not find it insulting that a big part of a woman (global concept)'s tafkid has to do with her roles as wife and mother. This doesn't mean that you're a failure if you're not a wife or mother, just that your individual tafkid, for whatever reason, differs from the general tafkid. I think it makes a lot of sense to have the role of one partner to be more focused on the kids - someone has to - and the Torah fully accommodates for that ie I understand you'll be taking care of your kids or your house etc that's exactly what I want you to do, so no you won't be obligated in lots of the mitzvos, your spiritual responsibility will be this instead. We're not like the Muslims who force a woman who just had a csection to kneel on the floor to pray while screaming in pain (true story). I'm not saying it's easy - I'm more intellectually minded and struggle with this sometimes too as it doesn't feel as spiritual and look as 'holy' but I also know that I have a valued and respected and special job. I also know that there is lots of room for female intellectuality in Judiaism with lots of precedents over the generations.
Op, I don't think your role is 'only' to enable your husband's Torah learning. I think that may be part of it, but it's really to be a supportive wife for whatever spiritual endeavors your husband persues(or just a supportive wife- period). And if you don't have a husband or kids, do your own learning. But that's just a part of it - there's more to the general tafkid for women and definitely more for your personal individual tafkid.
Also, while this isn't the pretty answer, I did learn that part of Chava's curse was that she would be seen as second - not inferior or low, and not second in Hashem's eyes, but second in society's eyes. But really, true Torah men have a lot of respect and admiration for their women and view them as the equal partners they are (not same but equal - there's a difference) and when you've had a chance to be around men and women like that you have an easier time understanding.
Hope this helps. I don't profess to know all the answers just sharing my understanding (based on what I've learned and experienced - I aplolgize I really do not have a good head for remembering sources just concepts so I can't quote you sources I just know that there are) |
Thank you for your post. I found a lot of value in it. No head to respond now, but I appreciate it.
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amother
Orchid
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Sun, Sep 22 2019, 10:13 am
| amother [ Tan ] wrote: | Honestly, I think that a lot of this has to do with how you want to perceive the Torah. If you want to find ways to be insulted, 'proofs' that the Torah looks down on women, etc you can find it. That doesn't mean that that's the authentic Jewish perspective. And whether we like it or not, a lot of this traces back to a view on women given to us by feminists which doesn't really jive with Torah.
That said, OP I think you need to keep in mind that there's a global tafkid for women, that's a general concept, and then there's the individual tafkid. I personally do not find it insulting that a big part of a woman (global concept)'s tafkid has to do with her roles as wife and mother. This doesn't mean that you're a failure if you're not a wife or mother, just that your individual tafkid, for whatever reason, differs from the general tafkid. I think it makes a lot of sense to have the role of one partner to be more focused on the kids - someone has to - and the Torah fully accommodates for that ie I understand you'll be taking care of your kids or your house etc that's exactly what I want you to do, so no you won't be obligated in lots of the mitzvos, your spiritual responsibility will be this instead. We're not like the Muslims who force a woman who just had a csection to kneel on the floor to pray while screaming in pain (true story). I'm not saying it's easy - I'm more intellectually minded and struggle with this sometimes too as it doesn't feel as spiritual and look as 'holy' but I also know that I have a valued and respected and special job. I also know that there is lots of room for female intellectuality in Judiaism with lots of precedents over the generations.
Op, I don't think your role is 'only' to enable your husband's Torah learning. I think that may be part of it, but it's really to be a supportive wife for whatever spiritual endeavors your husband persues(or just a supportive wife- period). And if you don't have a husband or kids, do your own learning. But that's just a part of it - there's more to the general tafkid for women and definitely more for your personal individual tafkid.
Also, while this isn't the pretty answer, I did learn that part of Chava's curse was that she would be seen as second - not inferior or low, and not second in Hashem's eyes, but second in society's eyes. But really, true Torah men have a lot of respect and admiration for their women and view them as the equal partners they are (not same but equal - there's a difference) and when you've had a chance to be around men and women like that you have an easier time understanding.
Hope this helps. I don't profess to know all the answers just sharing my understanding (based on what I've learned and experienced - I aplolgize I really do not have a good head for remembering sources just concepts so I can't quote you sources I just know that there are) |
I don't think Chava needed a curse to be second class in society. she was already just that by the mere fact of being created after Adam and from his rib.
Adam was told by hashem not to eat from the tree of knowledge. Chava heard it from Adam. She did not hear it from hashem.
Therefore we see the entire man/woman dynamics in our world is simply hashems design.
This harping on Chava's curse is a bit simplistic and often childish.
Bringing a child down into this world requires contractions just like the neshama on the deathbed struggles to go from one layer of this world to the next, to the next, to the next till it reaches its final resting place.
It is a concept in kabalah that there are layers of worlds from our earthly world till the highest world. going from one to the next is called tzimtzum= contraction.
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amother
OP
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Sun, Sep 22 2019, 10:17 am
| amother [ Orchid ] wrote: | I don't think Chava needed a curse to be second class in society. she was already just that by the mere fact of being created after Adam and from his rib.
Adam was told by hashem not to eat from the tree of knowledge. Chava heard it from Adam. She did not hear it from hashem.
Therefore we see the entire man/woman dynamics in our world is simply hashems design.
This harping on Chava's curse is a bit simplistic and often childish.
Bringing a child down into this world requires contractions just like the neshama on the deathbed struggles to go from one layer of this world to the next, to the next, to the next till it reaches its final resting place.
It is a concept in kabalah that there are layers of worlds from our earthly world till the highest world. going from one to the next is called tzimtzum= contraction. |
These points are largely irrelevant to the question at hand, though.
Also, a kabbalistic concept does not make pashut p'shat "childish," not at all. Many of us here do not subscribe to using kabbalistic concepts to explain everything.
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amother
Seagreen
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Sun, Sep 22 2019, 12:09 pm
| amother [ Orchid ] wrote: | I don't think Chava needed a curse to be second class in society. she was already just that by the mere fact of being created after Adam and from his rib.
Adam was told by hashem not to eat from the tree of knowledge. Chava heard it from Adam. She did not hear it from hashem.
Therefore we see the entire man/woman dynamics in our world is simply hashems design.
This harping on Chava's curse is a bit simplistic and often childish.
Bringing a child down into this world requires contractions just like the neshama on the deathbed struggles to go from one layer of this world to the next, to the next, to the next till it reaches its final resting place.
It is a concept in kabalah that there are layers of worlds from our earthly world till the highest world. going from one to the next is called tzimtzum= contraction. |
I think Chava had a child while still in Gan Eden and it was born right away without pain (I think it was born on Friday but I'll double check). So yes, hard pregnancies and labor come from Chava's punishment. I'm pretty sure it's explicitly written in the Torah.
Also, doesn't it say "male and female he created them"? I think that originally it was a male and female creation in one and then Hashem separated them.
But of course Chava is subservient to Adam from day one, I think that's pretty obvious in the chumash.
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amother
Orchid
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Sun, Sep 22 2019, 12:13 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | These points are largely irrelevant to the question at hand, though.
Also, a kabbalistic concept does not make pashut p'shat "childish," not at all. Many of us here do not subscribe to using kabbalistic concepts to explain everything. |
You might be right. But this is to make it clear that people love to point out Chava's curse
when they don't even know the Bereishis story properly. Hashem told Adam not to eat from the Eitz Hadaas, not Chava. Adam told Chava, so it was second hand info. A serpent was sent to ensnare Chava, not Adam. Are men immune from being ensnared into trouble?
no.
So we see that the entire one gender being superior while the other inferior was designed by hashem. pashut pshat.
And regarding the heavenly layers and contractions. It is quoted in Chazal.
My point is, that I look at the entire male/female scenario as a design from hashem.
If you would like clarification, you could look up Rabbi Pinchas Friedmans maamorim based on Rishonim, contemporary gedolim.
http://www.shvileipinchas.com/english.html
It is so wildly popularly, that a Doctor in the Five Towns has has it translated in French, English and Spanish.
Good Luck!
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Ruchel
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Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:00 pm
| tichellady wrote: | | The Gemara is full of conflicting ideas about women. If you don’t like that specific piece then you don’t have to like it or agree with it. It’s not the basis of our faith. |
and men
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amother
Honeydew
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Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:35 pm
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Just wondering- How are you all OK with being inferior, subservient and/or second class?
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cbsp
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Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:46 pm
| amother [ Honeydew ] wrote: | | Just wondering- How are you all OK with being inferior, subservient and/or second class? |
How were yisraelim ok with not being kohanim?
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amother
Honeydew
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Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:52 pm
Not the same thing at all. There are shlosha kesarim (3 crowns). Keser Kehuna went to the descendants of Aharon HaCohen. Keser Malchus went to the descendants of Dovid HaMelech. Keser Torah is available for all who want it (as long as they are male  ). In fact a Mamzer Talmud Chacham takes precedence over a kohen gadolinium am ha’aretz.
My question is to all who are stating that women are inherently inferior and second class by Torah Design. How are you all OK with that?
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amother
Seagreen
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Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:53 pm
| amother [ Honeydew ] wrote: | Not the same thing at all. There are shlosha kesarim (3 crowns). Keser Kehuna went to the descendants of Aharon HaCohen. Keser Malchus went to the descendants of Dovid HaMelech. Keser Torah is available for all who want it (as long as they are male ). In fact a Mamzer Talmud Chacham takes precedence over a kohen gadolinium am ha’aretz.
My question is to all who are stating that women are inherently inferior and second class by Torah Design. How are you all OK with that? |
I'm not ok with it at all. But do I have a choice?
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Ruchel
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Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:57 pm
There's no inferior there's different.
The cohen may have an elevatedstatus, he has harsher punishments too
In the end what matters to me is daily life
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amother
Cerise
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Sun, Sep 22 2019, 2:02 pm
| cbsp wrote: | | How were yisraelim ok with not being kohanim? |
Because at least yisraelim are treated fairly. Woman are often lumped literally with deaf, mentally disabled, and minors. C'mon, be reasonable.
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amother
Seagreen
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Sun, Sep 22 2019, 2:23 pm
| Ruchel wrote: | There's no inferior there's different.
The cohen may have an elevatedstatus, he has harsher punishments too
In the end what matters to me is daily life |
It's true that men have more potential aveiros than women as well.
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