S/O Nashim b'mai zachyan

amother

Emerald

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 7:08 pm

I read in the nefesh shimshon by reb shimshon pincus how women are held in such a high regard that theyre have the shechinah in them. However the mother is, thats the way the house will be run and thats how her kids will end up (We hope). Now where does all her ideas and thoughts about chinuch, tefillah, mitzvos come from? Her brain. Which is under her hair and that's where the shechinah lies. Hair is like straws and if you leave it exposed you have open access to the shechinah which is so holy so therefore we cover it.
Women are held so holy and so high because they're the ones that contain the shechinah of their home of their mikdash meat

I dont know about but I find that a huge responsibility

Laiya

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 7:08 pm

amother [ Seafoam ] wrote:

I can tell you from personal experience that is not true across the board. I got my period while I was exclusively nursing on demand, before my baby was 3 months old.

But is it enough of a generality that it's not a far stretch to say, in a time when there was poor nutrition and women did nurse exclusively for 2 years, that may have suppressed ovulation?

amother

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 7:19 pm

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

Again, this answer just does not sit well with me.

amother

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 7:22 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

I think R Soloveitchik said that now that women learn secular studies on such a high level, they should also learn Jewish studies, ie gemara on a high level as well.

So there are opinions that the role of women and view of their abilities can evolve within a halachic framework.

Clearly, I am not posting from a viewpoint that goes by R' Soloveitchik.

amother

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 7:24 pm

Laiya wrote:

But is it enough of a generality that it's not a far stretch to say, in a time when there was poor nutrition and women did nurse exclusively for 2 years, that may have suppressed ovulation?

There are rabbonim who give a blanket bc heter for two years because that's how long the body naturally suppressed ovulation during the time of the Gemara.

Some rabbonim hold that this is only the case if one is nursing, which would support your claim. But some do not, indicating that there is a tzad to say that the body gave natural breaks.

amother

Honeydew

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 7:25 pm

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

This answer doesn’t sit well with me, either - especially since I don’t think it’s true.

amother

Emerald

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 7:30 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Again, this answer just does not sit well with me.

Which part dont you understand?

That gemara is not talking about that you dont get any schar just that you dont get schar for learning now how can you get schar for learning? by sending your husband and kids off to learn. And honestly? I dont think youd want the pressure of that you must open a gemara or mishnayos and learn during the day. At the end of a long day of work and dealing with the kids and the house I just want to relax! But if you want to then go ahead no ones stopping you. as another poster posted that the gemara was only because women used to be illiterate but that we can learn and get schar today. I honestly dont understand the question.

amother

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 7:35 pm

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

Did I say I want the pressure of learning every day?

No. Not at all. What I said is that I think my role in this world extends beyond my role as a wife and mother- in other words, my role as an enabler of men.

amother

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 7:43 pm

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

Yes seriously, you cant compare the quality of a also-mother home to the one of a specialist-mother home. It’s like comparing frozen French fries with peanut butter sandwiches supper to a properly homemade fresh cooked meal . They’re both “supper” but not the same.
Personally when I need any service I prefer to go to a specialized professional and not some general guy whose good at everything.

This thread was not about SAHMs vs. working mothers. Start a spin-off if you want to discuss that. I'm sure that's a topic that has been hashed out many times before.

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

Also, some people will always hate the witnesses, so it protects women to stay out of it and not have to testify against anyone.
Like Switzerland during wars, can stay neutral.
Hate is a scary thing especially when it’s directed against a specific woman.

So we "delicate women" can't handle the hate? But the strong, brave men can?

Come on.

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

I don’t mind if you call it apologetics. Those are my beliefs. Maybe clouded by my love for the Torah, but that’s what I feel.
Every feeling and opinion is valid so please don’t bash it. Thanks so much.

So I'll call it apologetics, then.

amother

Seafoam

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 7:43 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

But where does it say that your value is exclusively as an enabler? Yes, limud Torah is a unique mitzva, and a woman may receive her schar for that mitzva through her husband. But why don't you think you have potential for so many other things? There are 613 mitzvos in the Torah, and most of them you can do! You can receive tremendous schar for all of the other things that you do, related or unrelated to being a wife and mother.

I don't see how "nashim b'mai zachyan" means receiving schar, period. Perhaps just for the mitzva of talmud Torah.

amother

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 7:46 pm

amother [ Seafoam ] wrote:

"Nashim b'mai zachyan" means more than schar. It means either "how do women earn Olam Haba?" or "how do women earn techiyas hameisim?"

Basically, since schar limud is the only way to earn those things according to the Gemara, then the question is how women earn the zechus. The answer is clearly in that Gemara:

?אמר ליה רב לרבי חייא: נשים במאי זכיין
באקרויי בנייהו לבי כנישתא ובאתנויי גברייהו בי רבנן ונטרין לגברייהו עד דאתו מבי רבנן

amother

Honeydew

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 7:46 pm

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

Why?

Because until the last century or so, women were universally considered spiritually inferior to men. I haven’t seen anything respectful of women before R’Shamshon Refael Hirsch. ChaZaL, Rishonim, and all early Achronim continually disparage women, and they don’t say anything remotely like this. (According to Pirkei d’Rabbi Eliezer, covering hair is one of the klalos of Chava.)

amother

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 7:51 pm

Laiya wrote:

Ok, I was thinking the last 500 years or so. I've heard this in reference to the psak regarding women not fasting if you have a baby under 2, which would've been more contemporary. Do we have any source for saying that women did not menstruate for 2 years after giving birth, even if not nursing, during the times of chumash?

As far as your last sentence, there is definitely a legitimate scientific view that nursing a baby under 6 months, every 4-6 hours around the clock and baby getting no nutrition from other sources or even bottles, suppresses ovulation.

Even if it's only referring to nursing women-

a woman is referred to ask a מינקת for 2 years postpartum in halacha. According to the Gemara, as long as a woman was nursing, she did not have to anticipate a flow and keep any of the onos perisha.

Nowadays, LAM attempts notwithstanding, there are many, many women who get their periods within 3 months postpartum despite following the exact instructions. The poster who wrote that is far from the only one. Just type "nursing clean" into Imamother's search bar and you'll see all the different threads about it. Nursing is NOT an effective form of birth control nowadays, even for the first 6 months.

But even if it was for the first 6 months- that is a far cry from a guaranteed 2 years without ovulating.

Again, though, there are rabbonim that hold that a woman can use bc for the first 2 years postpartum, no questions asked, since this used to be the physical reality, regardless of nursing. I don't know what their source is, but they're obviously getting it from somewhere.

amother

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 7:54 pm

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

Ok let’s go with your argument.
What about the guy noticing she saw the whole thing, coming after her chocking her and shoving her body into a dumpster..? You still want the right to be a valid witness?
Editing to add:
Basically I believe this design is for everyone’s benefit, women, men and all of klal yisrael.
Just like by the meraglim they were upset about seeing so many funerals in the land while G-d actually designed it for their benefit and protection.
If we trust G-d , we can trust that His master design is perfect and best for all of His nation.

Whether or not I would want to be a witness does not negate the question of why I cannot be a witness l'halacha.

It doesn't really matter to me one way or another. I'm just pointing that out.

Ultimately, your last line is the answer that we come to: we need to trust that Hashem has His reasons, which we are not privy to. תיקו.

amother

Seafoam

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 7:55 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I have never seen it this way. While I may have griped more than once about why men have it so much better than ladies (just ask my husband Wink

), I never viewed men as being better. While men and women may have different roles, I've always had the impression that men and women are equally valuable in our religion.

I can't remember now who the story is about, but there is a story (in the gemara?) of a couple who was giving tzedaka and ran away so the recipient wouldn't see them. They hid inside a hot oven. The man's feet were being burned, but not the woman's. This was because she did tzedaka on a higher level than he did. But this man was a tanna? Amora? I'm sure he learned a lot of Torah! Why was it her schar that protected her and not his? She was obviously on a high level and being rewarded for the good that she did. She was reaching her own potential for her.

amother

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 7:56 pm

amother [ Tan ] wrote:

While I think you're being a little harsher than necessary, and I still see a big difference between niddah and a court case with someone chayav misa ( people may know she's niddah or not but they won't know that she didn't report spotting and 'punishment' wise no one knows and no one makes any decison/judgement here except she herself), I will agree with you that I wasn't thinking of other cases where women are disqualified from being a witness (just the cases where you're causing someone else's death). But I'm still not seeing it as offensive or as a slight to womens intelligence. I see it as gezeras hakasuv, something I don't understand the reason for, but my overall feeling and belief when it comes to how Hashem and the Torah view women doesn't change. I don't believe at all that Hashem and the Torah (He is the author let's not forget) sees us non intelligent inferior creatures. At all.

That is your feeling. You can understand how other women would feel differently after reading some of the text, though, right?

amother [ Tan ] wrote:

As for the chazal, gemara thing I think what people found issue with is writing off chazal in a way that can be seen as disrespectful. And when it comes to understanding what's advice what's halacha what we can say is ok to not do and what we still do (ie eating meat and fish together is something we still do even though we don't understand it according to modern day science), that's where our poskim come in. We don't just decide on our own and even when we say that we don't follow the advice anymore, we need to be careful with how we word it. Not that chazal didn't know anything or made stuff up or were superstitious or just ridiculous etc, just that we don't understand and our poskim say we don't need to follow so we don't.

That is a big part of what troubles me about the Gemara, certainly.

amother

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 7:58 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

I wanted to add , as a BT I was told that Judaism is logical and true historically and not in any way contradict science. And now you say that I have to believe in what Chazal said about science Surprised

I should probably start a spin-off about this, but I want to point out that many of the things taught to BTs are patently false. I'm not commenting on the truth value of this particular statement, but in general, the worst apologetics are the "reasons" that are taught to BTs. It's terribly misleading.

amother

Tue, Sep 24 2019, 8:03 pm

amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:

Regarding women as witnesses, I’m seeing two contradictory apologetic arguments:

1. Women do not have not have sufficiently strong control over their emotions to be trusted in life/death situations.
2. Women are too busy with the all-important task(s) of running a household and raising children to be bothered with serving as witnesses.

I’m not getting it. If women are too emotional to be rational, why would they be trusted to raise children, which requires intelligence, judgment, etc.? And in a case where a person’s life is at stake, would you really tell someone to just stay at home with their kids when showing up and testifying can save a life?

Maybe I’m just too emotion to be rational, but I just don’t get this.

If I am going to follow the argument that women allow emotion to join with judgment at times, I can extend the argument to answer this question.

Raising children clearly requires a delicate blend of logic and emotion, which women have much more strongly than men.

Testifying as a witness in beis din requires cold, hard logic, completely divested of any emotional interpretation.

In places that have offered this explanation about why women can't testify, I have seen written that it's not that a woman cannot put aside emotion to testify completely based on reason and logic, but that they should not do that on a regular basis. We are meant to use both sides and keep that delicate balance.

I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here. I think I've done that a lot on this thread. It's because I'm somewhat confused about what really resonates with me. (Also, this thread went quite far from my original intention in starting it.)