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Fox




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 10:04 pm
wiki wrote:
I'm not one to manufacture tons of brand-new outrage about retreating from Kurdistan, either. I generally support the idea of not being entangled in endless Middle East wars. That said, the situation here seems deeply troubling because:

1) Lindsey Graham and Nikki Haley and Mitch McConnell are furious. Considering how many other offenses sent them defensive of the president, this one must be serious.
2) The timing is quite sketchy: Trump announced this withdrawal without consulting his defense agencies and moments after he got off the phone with Erdogan. Does our foreign policy follow marching orders from Erdogan? Super troubling.
3) Trump's willingness to turn 180 on his allies doesn't inspire confidence. I hope Israel never gets thrown under his bus.

Here's an idea: rather than jumping to conclusions about what is "troubling" and what isn't, let's all wait and see how this plays out. Scott Adams wrote an op-ed in the WSJ about the need to wait until all facts emerge rather than concocting theories that just happen to align with our preconceived ideas.

As I said, I don't know if this is a good decision or not. It might be a bad one. But the information we've gotten so far is too sketchy to draw any true conclusions.
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wiki




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 10:05 pm
fox wrote:
As for the ridiculous Putin accusation, I'm afraid I can't keep up. I thought Trump was agitating Putin by leaning on Ukraine? Or was that last week? And didn't Jeanette claim Trump isn't loyal to anyone or anything? So why would he be loyal to Putin or Ukraine?

Anyway, given the current state of NATO, the most positive impact it provides is allowing Trump to keep Ric Grenell firmly ensconced in Berlin, thereby performing one of the most delightful examples of psychosexual trolling in anyone's memory.Not even gonna touch that last paragraph there.


Most people don't think Trump is *loyal* to Putin, but many do think that he seems to be swayed by Russian influence. Either for his own profit, or because Putin is extorting him. Before scoffing this off, please acknowledge that we have no idea about Trump's financial earnings or borrowings from foreign countries because he has refused to abide by normal norms of transparency.

Withholding aid from Ukraine while it tries to defend itself from Russia? Helps Russia.
Withdrawing from Kurdish areas of Syria to allow Turks to invade (which they're doing already)? Helps Russia.
Leaving the Open Skies Treaty? I grant that I'm no expert on the treaty, but the House Intelligence Committee tells me that this helps Russia.

Trump always puts himself first. When he puts Russia first, I assume it means that he is either preserving his own financial interests or avoiding his own personal embarrassment.
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wiki




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 10:08 pm
Fox wrote:
Here's an idea: rather than jumping to conclusions about what is "troubling" and what isn't, let's all wait and see how this plays out. Scott Adams wrote an op-ed in the WSJ about the need to wait until all facts emerge rather than concocting theories that just happen to align with our preconceived ideas.

As I said, I don't know if this is a good decision or not. It might be a bad one. But the information we've gotten so far is too sketchy to draw any true conclusions.


I said "Seems troubling," which was not meant to be taken as any sort of jumping to conclusions.

So I think that means we sort of agree. Awesome.
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Fox




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 10:23 pm
wiki wrote:
Most people don't think Trump is *loyal* to Putin, but many do think that he seems to be swayed by Russian influence. Either for his own profit, or because Putin is extorting him. Before scoffing this off, please acknowledge that we have no idea about Trump's financial earnings or borrowings from foreign countries because he has refused to abide by normal norms of transparency.

Except this is contradicted by facts. For example, if Trump wanted to benefit Russia, why would he be fighting so hard against Nord Stream 2 and NATO reliance on Russian energy? Why would he be aggressively pushing U.S. influence on GCC matters? Why would he be pushing NATO countries to upgrade their military equipment and preparedness?

wiki wrote:
Withholding aid from Ukraine while it tries to defend itself from Russia? Helps Russia.
Withdrawing from Kurdish areas of Syria to allow Turks to invade (which they're doing already)? Helps Russia.
Leaving the Open Skies Treaty? I grant that I'm no expert on the treaty, but the House Intelligence Committee tells me that this helps Russia.

Except Ukraine got its money; Russia has been operating in Syria for decades; and, frankly, the House Intell Committee might want to keep quiet for a week or so, at least.

wiki wrote:
Trump always puts himself first. When he puts Russia first, I assume it means that he is either preserving his own financial interests or avoiding his own personal embarrassment.

This is stating as a fact that which is to be proven. Unless you have some personal knowledge of Trump, I'm not sure how you evaluate how his self-servingness compares with other presidents.

On the plus side, though, we do have quite a bit of evidence that absolutely nothing can embarrass President Trump. Smile
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 10:30 pm
wiki wrote:
Another thing that I don't really understand is why Jews who support Trump's policies but find him lacking in morals, intellect, honesty, and self-control, would not find Mike Pence to be a great replacement?

To me, this makes eminent sense. I can't wrap my head around why there aren't more people who see it this way.


Because we’re not looking for a replacement.
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 10:33 pm
wiki wrote:
Seeing Trump's actions as "high crimes and misdemeanors" is not exclusively a Democratic view. Mitt Romney finds Trump's actions in Ukraine to be appalling. It seems that perhaps he would prefer to see Pence be president.

To the framers of the Constitution, "high crimes and misdemeanors" particularly referred to a president who sold out foreign policy to some interest other than the national public interest. See the Federalist Papers for the discussions. They feared a president who was bought out by other countries and became a pawn (bribed or extorted) to follow the foreign policy of another country. (Trump probably does fall into this category, but without perfect proof, it makes sense that no impeachment articles are taking up this line of reasoning.) Using foreign policy to extort an ally for personal gain is very much the sort of crime that the framers were thinking of.

Anyone out there who thinks that investigating Biden wasn't about "personal gain", when this was only after Biden announced he was running for president and began to appear leading Trump in head-to-head polls--well, Mitt Romney thought that this argument "strains credulity." When a reporter asked Trump on Friday if he had ever asked any country to investigate anyone who was not his direct political rival, he could not name any other examples. The only corruption that has ever bothered Trump is the corruption of political rivals.


Are you bothered by the corruption of Biden and his son Hunter? Nope I doubt it. You’ll just justify it, deny it, like you did with Adam Schiff. And you didn’t answer about his other whoppers, like why did he lie and not admit he had seen the wb complaint a month prior? And why has he not produced the “absolute proof” he claimed to have that Trump colluded with Russia?
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 10:36 pm
wiki wrote:
Sure, I've seen Biden's video bragging about getting Shokin fired. He used pressure on an ally to get a result. Countries do that all the time TO ADVANCE NATIONAL INTEREST. Firing Shokin was something that America wanted; the Obama State Department, the UK, the EU, the IMF, and even MANY Republican Senators cheered it at the time!

Did firing Shokin advance Biden's personal interest? I have seen no evidence that it did. Shokin had not been actively investigating Burisma at the time. (I know, he was so upset after he was fired that be blamed it on Biden and claimed that Biden did this to protect his son. But find any evidence other than bitter Shokin to corroborate this? I have looked hard. I don't see any.)

I agree that Biden should not have let his son get money from Ukraine. Hillary also. Trump's kids are just as corrupt in this way! We should improve standards across the board in this regard. I don't think Trump's kids' foreign profits are a reason to impeach Trump, although they are unseemly.


Why won’t dems put the impeachment inquiry up for a vote? Why are they insisting everything be done behind closed doors so Americans can’t hear for themselves what’s happening instead of being expected to believe Schiff and Pelosi’s interpretations? As far as Schiff, are you aware that in court, if a witness is caught lying, the judge may assume that their entire testimony is no longer credible? So why would any sane person ever believe another word Schiff says?
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 10:38 pm
wiki wrote:
I'm totally agree that financial corruptions should be dealt with consistently. But while we're grilling Hunter Biden, we must also include the personal financial profits of Don, Eric, Ivanka and Donald Trump.

If you'd rather leave the Trump kids out, then leave Hunter Biden alone for now too.


Apples and oranges, there’s absolute proof Biden Jr., a drug addict with zero experience in the field, wrongly profited big time from foreign countries because of his father’s position...there’s no such proof or suggestion of the same with the Trump kids.
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 10:39 pm
Jeanette wrote:
I'm just curious what the excuse is going to be for why Trump ordered US troops withdrawn from Syria, leaving our Kurdish allies (who were fighting ISIS for us) exposed to Turkish aggression.

1. He was just joking
2. He's the president so he has the absolute legal right to do it.
3. Don't question his vast and unmatched wisdom
4. Who cares if Muslims kill each other
5. He's trolling the libs
6. He's fulfilling a campaign promise
7. You're overreacting
8. The world hasn't blown up yet
9. Judges
10. Tax cuts


He’s looking to keep yet another campaign promise (an unheard of concept to dems) and said he will quickly send the troops back is necessary.
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 10:42 pm
Jeanette wrote:
BTW, remember when I warned Trump supporters that it's a waste of energy to defend Trump, because he won't be loyal to you? And the mods flagged my post because it was a "personal attack"?

This is a warning signal. Trump is abandoning our Kurdish allies to their deaths. They fought alongside us to root out ISIS. Trump is kicking them to the curb without a backward glance.

He'd do the same to you in an instant. To Israel, to the Jewish people, to any value you cherish that you think you're upholding by supporting Trump.

You do not need to keep doing this. You don't need to keep fighting for him and defending him. You don't even need to come out in public and say, "I erred." You could just stop supporting him and backing him. He will fall on his own.

I promise you, the Torah will survive without Trump. The Jewish people will survive. I'm still gonna swing a chicken over my head tonight and fast the next day. Am Yisroel chai.

Gmar chasima tova to all of you. Wishing you a year of light and clarity and geulah.


He won’t be loyal to us? Newsflash: he has already been much, much more loyal to Jews and Israel than any US president in history! I’m not sure why you seem to have this block against the truth about him. The hatred is truly, completely unwarranted, and certainly not based on reality/facts. Perhaps try to look into what is really behind it.
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 10:45 pm
Fox wrote:
To be honest, I'm not sure what I think about this announcement. As of right now, I can see arguments on both sides.

But let's be clear on one thing: anyone who is just now expressing concern about the Kurds is a complete fraud and regards everyone else as stupid.

Trump has pursued a policy of withdrawing from Syria since the beginning of his presidency, including reducing U.S. troops from about 2000 to the current 200-400 over a year ago. If you were concerned about Turkish aggression, the proper time to have voiced your opposition would have been in early 2018.

Here is the other thing to consider:

Lots of people are expressing disagreement with the decision to withdraw from Syria, but I have yet to see a single individual, including all the usual suspects on both sides of the aisle, articulate a clear objective of what we should do and state unequivocally exactly how many American lives they are willing to sacrifice to that end.

We need to be very, very careful when supporting actions that involve sending other women's sons to be killed.


Of course you’re right, I can guarantee those decrying this couldn’t care less about our troops, and are only using this as yet another reason to bash the president! If Obama had done it you’d be hearing about how wonderful he is for keeping his campaign promises and protecting our troops!
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 10:47 pm
wiki wrote:
I'm not one to manufacture tons of brand-new outrage about retreating from Kurdistan, either. I generally support the idea of not being entangled in endless Middle East wars. That said, the situation here seems deeply troubling because:

1) Lindsey Graham and Nikki Haley and Mitch McConnell are furious. Considering how many other offenses sent them defensive of the president, this one must be serious.
2) The timing is quite sketchy: Trump announced this withdrawal without consulting his defense agencies and moments after he got off the phone with Erdogan. Does our foreign policy follow marching orders from Erdogan? Super troubling.
3) Trump's willingness to turn 180 on his allies doesn't inspire confidence. I hope Israel never gets thrown under his bus.


You don’t have to hope; Trump has been the best friend to Israel, Obama is the one who threw them under the bus.
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wiki




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 11:28 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Because we’re not looking for a replacement.


I know you aren't! Smile I referred to Jews who like his policies but are uncomfortable with his intellect, self-control, moral background, and honesty.
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wiki




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 11:31 pm
Cheiny wrote:
He won’t be loyal to us? Newsflash: he has already been much, much more loyal to Jews and Israel than any US president in history! I’m not sure why you seem to have this block against the truth about him. The hatred is truly, completely unwarranted, and certainly not based on reality/facts. Perhaps try to look into what is really behind it.


The concern is only based on the fact that he was a loyal ally to the Kurds also until a few minutes ago.

He was also, once, loyal to Michael Cohen. And to Jeff Sessions.

And to Mike Pence (who lately he has been eager to tell the press about how involved with Ukraine he was too).

Nobody is chas veshalom saying that Trump is anything less than super supportive of Israel. Just that Trump has a track record of not staying loyal in his relationships.
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wiki




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 11:35 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Are you bothered by the corruption of Biden and his son Hunter? Nope I doubt it. You’ll just justify it, deny it, like you did with Adam Schiff. And you didn’t answer about his other whoppers, like why did he lie and not admit he had seen the wb complaint a month prior? And why has he not produced the “absolute proof” he claimed to have that Trump colluded with Russia?


I honestly don't see why Trump's impeachment is impacted whatsoever by Adam Schiff's alleged involvement in the whistleblower. For one, your claims come from fringe, conspiracy media and I do not trust the allegations. But even if they were right (and I admit, neither you nor I were there, so neither of us really know!), I don't think it matters one whit what sort of help the whistleblower had in drafting his complaint. Its allegations are what matter. And the allegations are holding up to scrutiny.

You are repeating yourself and this debate is going frankly nowhere.
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wiki




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 11:36 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Apples and oranges, there’s absolute proof Biden Jr., a drug addict with zero experience in the field, wrongly profited big time from foreign countries because of his father’s position...there’s no such proof or suggestion of the same with the Trump kids.


Both are nepotism. Both are foreign countries offering substantial monetary profits to children of presidents. Both are an appearance of conflict of interest for the parents. Neither is impeachably bad, but both are WRONG.
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Jeanette




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 10:11 am
Quote:
Here's an idea: rather than jumping to conclusions about what is "troubling" and what isn't, let's all wait and see how this plays out. Scott Adams wrote an op-ed in the WSJ about the need to wait until all facts emerge rather than concocting theories that just happen to align with our preconceived ideas.


Scott Adams??? Are you kidding me?

Scott Adams is a cartoonist. What foreign policy expertise does he have? That's where you turn for insight into one of the most consequential foreign policy decisions of this presidency?

What about the opinion of Brett Mcgurk, former envoy of the US to combat ISIS:

Quote:
Donald Trump is not a Commander-in-Chief. He makes impulsive decisions with no knowledge or deliberation. He sends military personnel into harm’s way with no backing. He blusters and then leaves our allies exposed when adversaries call his bluff or he confronts a hard phone call.


Or Nikki Haley. Remember her? The crown jewel of the Trump administration, the one you all pointed to with pride as the reason for supporting Trump, as proof that Trump is delivering on his promises. That Nikki Haley:
Quote:

We must always have the backs of our allies, if we expect them to have our back. The Kurds were instrumental in our successful fight against ISIS in Syria. Leaving them to die is a big mistake. #TurkeyIsNotOurFriend
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