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pause




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 12:31 am
Don't reference my immigrant grandparents in the same discussion as illegal IDKwhat's (because we can't call them aliens).

My grandparents, all four of them, came after the Holocaust through Ellis Island and were granted citizenship. They worked hard and pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, built up their businesses to support their families, and for some, their communities. They received no social services all the years, only later in their old age did they need Medicare. They didn't receive free public school or college scholarships.

Don't! Compare! It's chutzpah and a dishonor to my grandparents!
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mom_13




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 1:02 am
YES. YES. A THOUSAND TIMES YES!!!! My grandparents worked their @sses off to get to where they are today. And they're by no means rich. So don't box me in to this "privileged" jewish woman. I am far from that. And My grandparents came in legally and made it in a land where they were not wanted. Don't compare today's immigrants to my grandparents. Thanks.
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Raisin




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 5:15 am
I dunno, many of those people being refused entry right now remind me a lot of these people. https://www.washingtonpost.com.....back/

They probably aren't your grandparents since many of them died. (bh some of them were able to settle in safe countries, and some went through horrible experiences and survived)

The people who stopped them coming into the USA were people exactly like you.

Do you really think every Jew who left Europe for the US did so legally? I've heard plenty of stories of forged papers and so on.
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 5:41 am
The huge difference is- there is no Ellis Island now, or the equivalent. There is no legal path, in a reasonable way, to immigration like there once was. The wait can be 20 years even if someone is sponsored by a relative. I don't think there is a way to come in without a relative or employer sponsoring or asylum seeking. Someone who just wants to come, for whatever personal reasons- impossible

I also come from survivors. If they were trying to immigrate to the US now, they would have no chance, and they would be stuck in the DP camps in Europe. And with the current administration limit on refugees, maybe a trickle would be let in. Nothing like the free, welcoming passage our grandparents benefitted from- when the doors were open, in a legal way

We also need to remember the period before, when the doors to America were closed and a shipload of Jews were returned to their death in Europe.

So I don't believe there is a place for moral superiority for how our grandparents emigrated, and the fact that they did it "better" or whatever. And many Jews were not allowed to come in, and landed up in many other far flung places, which is why there are survivor based Jewish communities across the globe- in Latin America, Australia, South Africa, etc. It's really not so simple.

For those of us who had the good fortune that our grandparents were granted legal immigration-we should never forget our gratitude or good fortune, or put down other suffering people a couple of generations later who don't have that opportunity or good fortune
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WhatFor




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 5:53 am
pause wrote:
Don't reference my immigrant grandparents in the same discussion as illegal IDKwhat's (because we can't call them aliens).

My grandparents, all four of them, came after the Holocaust through Ellis Island and were granted citizenship. They worked hard and pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, built up their businesses to support their families, and for some, their communities. They received no social services all the years, only later in their old age did they need Medicare. They didn't receive free public school or college scholarships.

Don't! Compare! It's chutzpah and a dishonor to my grandparents!


My still surviving Holocaust refugee ancestor has no problem comparing refugees to their situation and does so themselves. Maybe don't presume to speak on behalf of all refugees.

Some of my ancestors tried to get their US visas legally but couldn't. They were murdered in death camps. If only they'd stuck it out through the horrors and just waited to do it legally like your grandparents did... No wait, they tried but were killed. Like many refugees today who wait and die before they can enter the US legally. My family that didn't wait for visas and just fled, legal or not, survived. That's why I'm alive today. I know I'm lucky and didn't do anything to deserve the privilege of being born in the US. Being born into a first world country is a bracha like being born into wealth or a stable family.

This Yom Kippur may Hashem accord you the same rachamim you accord to people fleeing persecution.
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DrMom




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 6:06 am
Not all people entering the country illegally are refugees fleeing for their lives.

The US has a formal process for those who want to apply for refugee status, and it involves applying at a formal border entry point.

Aside from that issue, those who simply sneak into the country are not vetted. A porous border with no checks is free-for-all for opportunistic criminals, terrorists, etc. Letting a bunch of random, unvetted people into your country is a huge security risk, not to mention an economic burden.

The US needs an immigration application process that works, and a border that is properly controlled.
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banana123




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 6:24 am
WhatFor wrote:
This Yom Kippur may Hashem accord you the same rachamim you accord to people fleeing persecution.

So how you talk to another Jew on erev Y"K is less important than how other people talk about illegal non-Jewish immigrants?
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WhatFor




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 8:16 am
banana123 wrote:
So how you talk to another Jew on erev Y"K is less important than how other people talk about illegal non-Jewish immigrants?


I will always speak my mind about having rachmanus on refugees, whether it's a Jew or non-Jew speaking, whether it's erev Yom Kippur or pesach sheiney. People don't stop being persecuted on erev Yom Kippur.

If the OP thinks she's applying an appropriate amount of rachamim then my comment shouldn't be an issue for her. If she's worried about how it would turn for her if she was on the receiving end of that level of empathy, then there's an easy way for her to fix that.
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marina




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 10:16 am
pause wrote:
Don't reference my immigrant grandparents in the same discussion as illegal IDKwhat's (because we can't call them aliens).

My grandparents, all four of them, came after the Holocaust through Ellis Island and were granted citizenship. They worked hard and pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, built up their businesses to support their families, and for some, their communities. They received no social services all the years, only later in their old age did they need Medicare. They didn't receive free public school or college scholarships.

Don't! Compare! It's chutzpah and a dishonor to my grandparents!


I came here legally with my family as a refugee and you don’t speak for me.

Many of the people seeking asylum or refugees status today are in much much worse situations than my family ever was and they have more moral right to be here than my family and I do. We were not fleeing for our lives, it was a bunch of b.s.. Maybe some minor discrimination against Jews some university quotas or whatever. Nothing like the violence people are escaping now.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 10:21 am
At the risk of discussing politics on erev Yom Kippur, I want to say that the problem is not the immigrants, regardless of where they come from.

The problem is a deeply broken system in the US, an already overtaxed social safety net, a disastrous national debt, and people who refuse to fix the problems.

The problem is other nation's governments who for various reasons have created untenable living conditions for it's citizens. People don't generally uproot themselves and move when things are good back home. War, drug cartels, famine, unemployment, those governments are all broken too.

Unless we all insist that our government do better in getting it's act together, the problem will just continue to grow and grow.

It's a broken world, but it starts at the top. There's no use kicking people on the bottom, when they're already down.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 10:33 am
If you adopt one Poor Child from 3rd world family - that is Rachmonos.

But if you adopt 1,000 poor 3rd world children - and now your BIOLOGICAL children are living in dire poverty - that is INSANITY and RISHUS. A parents first obligation is to take care of their own children and only after, try to help others. That is HALACHA.

USA cannot have OPEN BORDERS or we will all be living in a THIRD WORLD COUNTRY with dire poverty. Generous Welfare would CEASE - the poor will be homeless and get a bowl of government rice a day - like in other 3rd world countries.

Don't you people have any understanding of Economics? That money doesn't grow on trees and US doesn't have an UNLIMITED amount of $$$ to give welfare to immigrants? US is BORROWING $$$ to give to immigrants - including illegals.
Don't you understand that is INSANITY???
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Clarissa




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 1:11 pm
WhatFor wrote:
My still surviving Holocaust refugee ancestor has no problem comparing refugees to their situation and does so themselves. Maybe don't presume to speak on behalf of all refugees.

Some of my ancestors tried to get their US visas legally but couldn't. They were murdered in death camps. If only they'd stuck it out through the horrors and just waited to do it legally like your grandparents did... No wait, they tried but were killed. Like many refugees today who wait and die before they can enter the US legally. My family that didn't wait for visas and just fled, legal or not, survived. That's why I'm alive today. I know I'm lucky and didn't do anything to deserve the privilege of being born in the US. Being born into a first world country is a bracha like being born into wealth or a stable family.

This Yom Kippur may Hashem accord you the same rachamim you accord to people fleeing persecution.
Thank you.
signed,
Child of survivors
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 2:09 pm
Too bad Jeff Bezos doesn't pay taxes. It could feed a lot of hungry children.
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marina




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 2:12 pm
WhatFor wrote:
My still surviving Holocaust refugee ancestor has no problem comparing refugees to their situation and does so themselves. Maybe don't presume to speak on behalf of all refugees.

Some of my ancestors tried to get their US visas legally but couldn't. They were murdered in death camps. If only they'd stuck it out through the horrors and just waited to do it legally like your grandparents did... No wait, they tried but were killed. Like many refugees today who wait and die before they can enter the US legally. My family that didn't wait for visas and just fled, legal or not, survived. That's why I'm alive today. I know I'm lucky and didn't do anything to deserve the privilege of being born in the US. Being born into a first world country is a bracha like being born into wealth or a stable family.

This Yom Kippur may Hashem accord you the same rachamim you accord to people fleeing persecution.


love that ending bracha btw! Will use it!
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Raisin




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 09 2019, 6:40 pm
DrMom wrote:
Not all people entering the country illegally are refugees fleeing for their lives.

The US has a formal process for those who want to apply for refugee status, and it involves applying at a formal border entry point.

Aside from that issue, those who simply sneak into the country are not vetted. A porous border with no checks is free-for-all for opportunistic criminals, terrorists, etc. Letting a bunch of random, unvetted people into your country is a huge security risk, not to mention an economic burden.

The US needs an immigration application process that works, and a border that is properly controlled.


German Jews in WW2 were also seen as security risks. Some of my relatives were interned by the British for potentially being german spies.

To be honest, I am not sure if my family who left Germany in the 1930s were strictly fleeing for thier lives. No Jews had been murdered yet. Just inconveniences like being not allowed in schools, jobs etc. Luckily most of them didn't wait until it was too late and escaped. Ditto to my family who left Poland in the 1920s - it wasn't dangerous, just very anti semitic. No one could foretell WW2, but bh they left.
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DrMom




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 09 2019, 7:43 pm
Raisin wrote:
German Jews in WW2 were also seen as security risks. Some of my relatives were interned by the British for potentially being german spies.

To be honest, I am not sure if my family who left Germany in the 1930s were strictly fleeing for thier lives. No Jews had been murdered yet. Just inconveniences like being not allowed in schools, jobs etc. Luckily most of them didn't wait until it was too late and escaped. Ditto to my family who left Poland in the 1920s - it wasn't dangerous, just very anti semitic. No one could foretell WW2, but bh they left.

Are you suggesting that the US should not have any border control... because they cannot accurately define who is a refugee? Because you never know which countries might be producing legitimate refugees in the future?

If that is not what you are suggesting, then can you please explain?
.
I do not understand the point of your post. It seems like an emotional argument more than a practical suggestion.
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sequoia




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 09 2019, 7:53 pm
I’m an immigrant and have no problem with the comparison.

We were all the fakest refugees ever. My parents worked in HIAS and Joint in Rome, helping people fabricate persecution stories for the American and Canadian authorities. Not to mention we were all supposedly going to Israel, but no one actually did. The reason Soviet and Persian Jews went through Italy is because in Vienna, we formally refused aliyah. Then from Vienna we went to Italy and from there to the US or Canada, armed with heartbreaking tales of being “forbidden to practice our religion.” Now the Persian Jews actually were religious. But us? We were all atheists. We weren’t fleeing religious persecution, or any kind of persecution. People just wanted to live in a capitalist country, and the US and Canada were richer than Israel. Richer! That’s all.

Oh, but admission quotas at the math department in MSU *whine whine whine*

Whatever.

And somehow magically we deserve to be here.
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marina




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 09 2019, 8:19 pm
sequoia wrote:
I’m an immigrant and have no problem with the comparison.

We were all the fakest refugees ever. My parents worked in HIAS and Joint in Rome, helping people fabricate persecution stories for the American and Canadian authorities. Not to mention we were all supposedly going to Israel, but no one actually did. The reason Soviet and Persian Jews went through Italy is because in Vienna, we formally refused aliyah. Then from Vienna we went to Italy and from there to the US or Canada, armed with heartbreaking tales of being “forbidden to practice our religion.” Now the Persian Jews actually were religious. But us? We were all atheists. We weren’t fleeing religious persecution, or any kind of persecution. People just wanted to live in a capitalist country, and the US and Canada were richer than Israel. Richer! That’s all.

Oh, but admission quotas at the math department in MSU *whine whine whine*

Whatever.

And somehow magically we deserve to be here.


The above is my family story exactly to a T
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Ravenclaw




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 09 2019, 11:01 pm
FranticFrummie wrote:
At the risk of discussing politics on erev Yom Kippur, I want to say that the problem is not the immigrants, regardless of where they come from.

The problem is a deeply broken system in the US, an already overtaxed social safety net, a disastrous national debt, and people who refuse to fix the problems.

The problem is other nation's governments who for various reasons have created untenable living conditions for it's citizens. People don't generally uproot themselves and move when things are good back home. War, drug cartels, famine, unemployment, those governments are all broken too.

Unless we all insist that our government do better in getting it's act together, the problem will just continue to grow and grow.

It's a broken world, but it starts at the top. There's no use kicking people on the bottom, when they're already down.


I agree 100%. If America were to spend a tenth of the planned border wall budget in foreign aid to help build up South America’s economy and fight against crime, everyone would benefit.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 1:14 am
Ravenclaw wrote:
I agree 100%. If America were to spend a tenth of the planned border wall budget in foreign aid to help build up South America’s economy and fight against crime, everyone would benefit.


You can't give $$$ to CORRUPT Socialist Dictators - the bulk of the $$$ ends up
in the Dictator's Pocket (Swiss Bank Accounts). That's why these countries are Poor.

BUILD THE WALL! Walls work - ask Israel. Or Mexico - which has a Wall on ITS Southern Border.
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