Bringing children into non-ideal situations

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Chayalle

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 2:18 pm

Laiya wrote:

Me too. And...me too.

and me too Smile

southernbubby

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 2:30 pm

I would stick my nose in to say that there have been threads on here posted by sisters or SILs of women who were cognitively or mentally impaired and having babies in close succession. There actually was an expectation that family members would get involved and take responsibility. In those cases, it may be understandable that those family members stick their own noses in to influence the couple to seek a heter. It probably really is their business.

SuperWify

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 2:32 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Someone told me that 70 years ago, the Satmar Rebbe encouraged his people to have as many children as possible (they still do). Someone had to put her baby in an orphanage (in a temporary situation, until the baby became older), because she had too many, too close together. Still, he encouraged her to have more.

"All outsiders agreeing" is not the same thing as right or wrong.

There is a concept, however, of not bringing children into times of famine. Just curious how it's possible, though, to have no food in today's times of food stamps, WIC, and who knows what else? We are certainly not living in times of famine, on any level...

That is a horrific story I hope isn’t true.

SuperWify

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 2:33 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I think there's a big difference between capable parents who are committed to the child, having a child in less than ideal circumstances - like those who chose to have a baby during WWII....or today, if there's some financial difficulty or other challenges....and bringing a child into a home where the parents are incapable, deficient or dysfunctional.

I recently had this discussion with a relative (by marriage) who has a sibling with mild special needs, and he thinks this sibling could get married...but what about children? This sibling is totally incapable of being a parent, and likely will marry someone like himself....even if others see to it that the children are fed, etc...what about the child's feelings?

A friend of mine in the Special Ed field told me she was involved with a child who was born to two parents who had DS (the child did not have DS and was being raised by other family members.) She told me she felt it was a travesty (and this was a friend who was very RW and not otherwise into BC) because the child had tremendous emotional issues due to his being ashamed of his parentage, and also having to cope with his relationship with them.

I know a family where both parents are limited, intellectually and emotionally, and they have children in the double digits. I can't begin to describe the pain I see there, in a home where there is laundry and garbage piled up from before you enter the house....3/4 of the children have severe emotional, mental, and other limitations/disabilities...and the few that are healthy and normal struggle mightily with having their needs met by outsiders to the family. Neither parent earns much....yes, they have food from gov't programs, and a house, but no money for the therapies the kids need, some aren't in school and just sit around all day....And this woman has continued to have more babies, into her 40's. I asked DH, where are the Rabbanim? Someone needs to tell them something.

Bravo 👏 👏

amother

cornflower

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 2:37 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Yes. And sometimes those children are born with similar issues to their parents, and their siblings, who are struggling financially themselves, are expected to pick up the tab and the care...figure out the costs of therapists, psychiatrists, tuition, etc...that are not being paid...of course, it's none of their business, but the calls they get from well-meaning people who question just why can't they do more.....

SuperWify

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 2:43 pm

southernbubby wrote:

This.

A close friend has a married sister with many children. Both are cognitively impaired to an extent. Each year it’s another baby and family and parents have to help and support more and more. You really don’t think the family should get involved?

ora_43

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 2:51 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Really? You think tone can't come across clearly in an online comment? Hmm. Well, I guess you're entitled to your opinion.

It doesn't take any special skill to get irritation and a sense of superiority across in a post.

Now, try to argue that you think something I believe in is morally wrong, without coming across as smug or dismissive. (In my subjective opinion. I will, of course, be perfectly unbiased in deciding whether you make a good point about me being wrong, or whether you're just ignorant.)

That's the real challenge.

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 2:54 pm

ora_43 wrote:

It doesn't take any special skill to get irritation and a sense of superiority across in a post.

Why? Isn't it up for interpretation?

banana123

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:07 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

No, because some say others shouldn't have children as though it doesn't mean anything at all.

That's your interpretation. Tone is often misinterpreted on the internet, and it could be that your posts came off as smug and couldn't-care-less to some people just as much as the other person's did to you.

southernbubby

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:17 pm

SuperWify wrote:

I would be the first one to tell them to get a heter! Absolutely the family has an obligation to get them to speak to a rav!

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:27 pm

banana123 wrote:

Not everything can be interpreted in multiple ways.

ora_43

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:32 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Why? Isn't it up for interpretation?

You're missing my point so badly I can only assume it's intentional.

Weird, there was an amother on the other thread who kept doing that, too.

banana123

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:33 pm

ora_43 wrote:

You're missing my point so badly I can only assume it's intentional.

Weird, there was an amother on the other thread who kept doing that, too.

Yeah, I've got 2 guesses as to which amother OP was on that other thread.

banana123

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:34 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Not everything has multiple interpretations.

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:37 pm

ora_43 wrote:

You're missing my point so badly I can only assume it's intentional.

Weird, there was an amother on the other thread who kept doing that, too.

You're missing my point.

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:39 pm

banana123 wrote:

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:53 pm

banana123 wrote:

Yeah, I've got 2 guesses as to which amother OP was on that other thread.

What other thread?

amother

Burlywood

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:55 pm

Rubber Ducky wrote:

If we all waited for "ideal" situations, how many people wouild have children?

I can’t help being struck by the fact that the premise of these subjects completely cuts Gd out of the picture,

SuperWify

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:00 pm

southernbubby wrote:

I would be the first one to tell them to get a heter! Absolutely the family has an obligation to get them to speak to a rav!

Look I have a friend that is married a few months more then me (like 4.5 years) and just had her fourth ka”h. She works like 3 jobs plus Sundays. her DH is in kollel. But I would never tell her anything in 100 years because she is managing just fine without my help bH. And it’s great and I’m thrilled for her.

But let’s say my fictitious pregnant friend with six kids under five comes to me and complains she’s so overwhelmed and tired and sick and her kids are not clean and malnourished then I would urge birth control (among other things ).

So my point is... some people believe you must always stay out of others bedrooms. But I believe - and think we are saying the same thing- that there is a time to speak up.

southernbubby

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:29 pm

SuperWify wrote:

If someone is under your sphere of influence then, yes, you have an obligation to speak up.

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