Bringing children into non-ideal situations

amother

Sienna

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:48 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Isn't this discussed in the gemara? (Then again I'm only half way through p. 1. It might be coming up around the corner.)

Yes.
https://judaism.stackexchange......eated

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:55 pm

banana123 wrote:

That's your interpretation. Tone is often misinterpreted on the internet, and it could be that your posts came off as smug and couldn't-care-less to some people just as much as the other person's did to you.

Please elaborate.

Laiya

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 5:56 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

And we have many, many threads from women who asked for a heter and were not given one. Also, as another poster pointed out, it's a heter, not a mandate. No Rav is going to pasken that someone may not get pregnant, unless it's a clear, clear sakanah. And I'm not even sure then.

Going back to my previous post, I'm more awake now and I just realized that the woman in that story was obviously not facing her reality. She was living in a fantasy world of she thought it was ok to have another child in her situation. People who live in fantasy and don't face reality are .... crazy. Or whatever the clinical term is. Not really related to right or wrong, IMO.

If a rav paskened that a friend of mine *should* terminate a pregnancy due to specific circumstances, it follows that psakim not to get pregnant to begin with would be given, as well.

singleagain

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:03 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Really? You think tone can't come across clearly in an online comment? Hmm. Well, I guess you're entitled to your opinion.

Tone is the most difficult thing to come across in the written word.

For instance the above comment sounds smug and condensing.

And, if have you ever seen a post that a poster later has to come clarify is sarcasm. That just happened the other day., I and several others were shocked at a post, and the poster came back and said it was sarcasm.

But that's very hard to read.

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:24 pm

singleagain wrote:

For instance the above comment sounds smug and condensing

That's because it was an illustration of how a tone (for example, smugness and condescension) can come across in a comment.

singleagain

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:42 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

That's because it was an illustration of how a tone (for example, smugness and condescension) can come across in a comment.

You still sounds smug and condensing.

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:50 pm

singleagain wrote:

You still sounds smug and condensing.

How can I "sound" like anything? If I detect a tone in someone's comment, it must be a mistake, because tone doesn't come across in writing, but if someone reads a tone in my comment, it's smug and condescending?

singleagain

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:09 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Pointing out that tone in writing is subjective to the person reading it.

This explains it better than I can.

amother

Denim

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:34 pm

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

I don't know what an "ideal" situation is, exactly ... I suspect it varies from one person to another. I posted in another thread about this recently. I am one of those who would probably be told by some not to get pregnant. I lived a whole secular life on various (incompatible with me) types of BC in DEFINITELY not ideal situations (abusive relationships, mental health issues, etc.) before converting and marrying an older man at age 35. I have ALWAYS wanted kids, and had been suffering from waiting for a long time.

It turns out that I married a guy who doesn't really want to be orthodox, and (soon after we were married) told me that he wasn't sure about having more kids (he has two from a previous marriage to a non-Jew, and had assured me that he wanted a Jewish family!) Many things turned out to be contrary to what he told me or led me to believe before we agreed to be married. AGH! Not to mention that we had a lot of Shalom Bayis problems aside from the obvious religion and babies issues. I spent a lot of time consulting with Rabbi's and Rebitzen's, who all said that unless it was a case of abuse, divorce in Shana Rishona was discouraged, and we should try to work things out. I got a lot of good advice and support from them, and friends and family. I got a heter for birth control, but was again faced with having no good options that didn't negatively affect my Shalom Bayis. I was only using spermicide for a few months, but we didn't get pregnant.

So, I had to weigh my options. How long would it take to go through the process of a get? I was told that the beis din would require at least 6 months of couple's therapy, plus the time that it would take my DH to actually go through the process - he wouldn't be motivated to do it, so it would drag on ... at least for a year. Probably more. And then, I would have to find a new husband, which we know is far from easy - and often not even possible. It's as a likely as not that by the time I got remarried, it would be too late for me to have children. My DH would certainly not look to get remarried at all, so he would end up with no Jewish children.

By the end of Shana Rishona, our Shalom Bayis was quite good. He's a good man, he works hard, helps around the house, he loves me very much, and I love him ... it seems quite likely that this is as close to the ideal situation as either of us is going to get. And Hashem must have agreed, because I got pregnant when we WEREN'T trying (another heter - inadvisable due to medication I was on, which I quit when I got the positive pregnancy test.) I had started to give up the idea of getting pregnant, and was working on convincing myself that I could be happy without babies!

I know this isn't a very popular opinion, but I really feel like it's our job to do the best that we can down here to make good decisions, and in the end, Hashem decides which situations are ideal for which babies. And, as I said in the other thread, it's very easy for those who have kids to judge those of us who have none and say the situation "isn't ideal". But is it fair to say that my DH or I should give up the mitzvah or having children because our situation isn't perfect? That Hashem shouldn't have sent us a baby? Don't we believe that all neshamas are sent for a reason?

Anyway, sorry this is so long and a little off-topic of the direction the thread has taken:) I don't want to argue, I just felt the need to give my point of view. Thanks for reading:)

Wow I remember all your threads from back then. To be honest I’m a little shocked you and your dh worked it out but I’m happy for you.

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:50 pm

singleagain wrote:

Pointing out that tone in writing is subjective to the person reading it.

This explains it better than I can.

Then either
1. The posts that I read as flippant were flippant, and mine were smug and condescending.
2. We don't know which words were stressed, so none of the posts were flippant, smug or condescending.

amother

Cerulean

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 12:51 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I think some people don't understand the magnitude in Yiddishkeit of being denied doros.

Every person has their own unique tikkun on earth. Not every tikkun includes children.
Their neshama is just as precious and their mission just as holy.

banana123

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 1:03 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

The answer is probably 2.
Condescending, smug, and flippant are anyways in the eye of the beholder.

amother

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 1:43 am

But I think we can agree that posts like

CENSORED wrote:

and

CENSORED wrote:

Yeah, I've got 2 guesses as to which amother OP was on that other thread.

have an undeniably nasty tone that can't be explained away by different stresses or connotations.

banana123

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 2:17 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

But I think we can agree that posts like
have an undeniably nasty tone that can't be explained away by different stresses or connotations.

In your opinion.

They were not meant that way. If we'd been face to face you probably would have chuckled at the first one.

banana123

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 2:27 am

amother [ censored ] wrote:

This looks like the poster is laughing at my frustration, and at me.

amother [ censored ] wrote:

What other thread?

This looks like the poster is turning up her nose at me and saying, in a pretend-innocent-"I-have-no-idea" way, "What?? I don't know what you're referring to" - even though the poster explicitly mentioned that thread at the very beginning of this one.

amother [ censored ] wrote:

No, because some say others shouldn't have children as though it doesn't mean anything at all.

This looks very smug and condescending, as if the poster is 1000% sure that everyone who doesn't agree with her not caring about anyone else's suffering.

amother [ censored] wrote:

It's clear based on tone.
ETA: Not everything is up for interpretation. Sometimes posters use language that clearly shows their attitude about something.

This is extremely smug and condescending, and frankly, just plain rude.

amother [ censored] wrote:

Again, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I guess not everyone has the skills to communicate tone in the written word.

If this poster doesn't interpret tone correctly, it must be because the person writing the post lacks skill in the written word. Very nasty, full of blame of the other and self-righteousness for the self.

Shall I go on?

My point is this. I am sure the above amother did not intend any of those posts to be smug, nasty, rude, condescending, or self-righteous. I am sure the above amother did not intend to laugh at my frustration or come off as flippant and couldn't-care-less when I mentioned the thread referred to at the beginning of this one.

But that is how it came across - because this is a forum.

That is why I said that NONE of these posts were intended to be any of the above negative things. Dan lekaf zechut, let's assume that we don't know tone because this is a forum.

That's what I've been doing, and what I assumed most people do. It makes me very sad to think that some people on here insist on knowing others' thoughts, tones, and intentions based on a toneless, easily-misinterpreted internet thread.

Almost every post can be misinterpreted. It's your choice if you want to assign intention to that misinterpretation or not.

Last edited by banana123 on Fri, Nov 15 2019, 2:28 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 2:27 am

banana123 wrote:

In your opinion.

They were not meant that way. If we'd been face to face you probably would have chuckled at the first one.

Face to face, talking about someone in their presence is even more rude.

banana123

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 2:29 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Face to face, talking about someone in their presence is even more rude.

Oh. My. Gosh.

You completely missed my point. Are you doing this on purpose?

singleagain

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 7:49 am

Banana123 thank you for explaining the tone thing.

southernbubby

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 8:46 am

The whole topic derailed basically because of an anonymous poster who can basically say whatever they want because nobody knows who they are. It happens all the time. Unless someone has a need for anonymity, it's basically cyberbullying to attack someone anonymously.

Refine

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 10:46 am

I wonder about the doiros consideration.
For there to be Doiros said child needs to be emotionally strong enough to get married and raise a child into adulthood so that their child can do the same.
If there is too much pain in the upbringing, the child might chvsh end up delinquient, overdosed, etc. and therefore unable to continue the Doris past the first generation.
But there's no way to predict what will be, and it's a very dearly held value so it can be really heartbreaking to face.