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-> Interesting Discussions
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amother
Ecru
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 Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:35 am
| Laiya wrote: | I disagree with the premise of the question, and maybe that's why the other thread was so polarized. The more extreme form of believing that it's ok or even appropriate or admirable to have children born into less than ideal circumstances is NOT intentionally conceiving a child with a genetic disease.
Issues of circumstance, bad situations--by definition things can change. That's why the Jewish women in mitzrayim were praised for procreating; their emunah was that things would change, it was all temporary and they would leave slavery.
That entire cheshbon is absolutely irrelevant to the other example, choosing to conceive a child that will likely have a genetic disease.
Does Torah support intentionally conceiving a child that is likely to suffer with a genetic disease? I'm no halachic expert but I'm pretty sure the mainstream frum world all currently supports dor yesharim |
Does bitachon not extend to hoping that a child will be part of the unaffected 25%, or that a cure will be found?
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amother
Chocolate
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:37 am
I don't know what an "ideal" situation is, exactly ... I suspect it varies from one person to another. I posted in another thread about this recently. I am one of those who would probably be told by some not to get pregnant. I lived a whole secular life on various (incompatible with me) types of BC in DEFINITELY not ideal situations (abusive relationships, mental health issues, etc.) before converting and marrying an older man at age 35. I have ALWAYS wanted kids, and had been suffering from waiting for a long time.
It turns out that I married a guy who doesn't really want to be orthodox, and (soon after we were married) told me that he wasn't sure about having more kids (he has two from a previous marriage to a non-Jew, and had assured me that he wanted a Jewish family!) Many things turned out to be contrary to what he told me or led me to believe before we agreed to be married. AGH! Not to mention that we had a lot of Shalom Bayis problems aside from the obvious religion and babies issues. I spent a lot of time consulting with Rabbi's and Rebitzen's, who all said that unless it was a case of abuse, divorce in Shana Rishona was discouraged, and we should try to work things out. I got a lot of good advice and support from them, and friends and family. I got a heter for birth control, but was again faced with having no good options that didn't negatively affect my Shalom Bayis. I was only using spermicide for a few months, but we didn't get pregnant.
So, I had to weigh my options. How long would it take to go through the process of a get? I was told that the beis din would require at least 6 months of couple's therapy, plus the time that it would take my DH to actually go through the process - he wouldn't be motivated to do it, so it would drag on ... at least for a year. Probably more. And then, I would have to find a new husband, which we know is far from easy - and often not even possible. It's as a likely as not that by the time I got remarried, it would be too late for me to have children. My DH would certainly not look to get remarried at all, so he would end up with no Jewish children.
By the end of Shana Rishona, our Shalom Bayis was quite good. He's a good man, he works hard, helps around the house, he loves me very much, and I love him ... it seems quite likely that this is as close to the ideal situation as either of us is going to get. And Hashem must have agreed, because I got pregnant when we WEREN'T trying (another heter - inadvisable due to medication I was on, which I quit when I got the positive pregnancy test.) I had started to give up the idea of getting pregnant, and was working on convincing myself that I could be happy without babies!
I know this isn't a very popular opinion, but I really feel like it's our job to do the best that we can down here to make good decisions, and in the end, Hashem decides which situations are ideal for which babies. And, as I said in the other thread, it's very easy for those who have kids to judge those of us who have none and say the situation "isn't ideal". But is it fair to say that my DH or I should give up the mitzvah or having children because our situation isn't perfect? That Hashem shouldn't have sent us a baby? Don't we believe that all neshamas are sent for a reason?
Anyway, sorry this is so long and a little off-topic of the direction the thread has taken:) I don't want to argue, I just felt the need to give my point of view. Thanks for reading:)
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Ema of 5
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:43 am
| etky wrote: | In fact we have two very famous midrashim praising women's efforts to procreate during the gezerot shmad of Pharoah : the midrash about Miriam chastising Amram who divorced Yocheved after reaching the conclusion that it was futile to bring children into the world in the wake of Pharoah's decree against the male babies, and the midrash about the Israelite women who would use their mirrors (later the mirrors that they bought to the mishkan and from which the כיור was fashioned) to 'seduce' their exhausted husbands into having relations so as to ensure the continuity of the Jewish people.
So, we may not pasken from sefer Shemot but we can extrapolate that procreation - even under the harshest conditions - is a very high value in the Jewish tradition. |
And Kimchit was praised for never showing her hair to the walls of her house. That doesn’t mean that’s the ideal. It means that that behavior was extra praiseworthy. Procreation is of very high value, but it is not the ONLY or HIGHEST value.
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Ema of 5
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:46 am
| amother [ Salmon ] wrote: | Surely it's a value, but in that case, the Jews knew that their condition was going to end.
While it's a value to have children, it may not be right for every couple to have children in every situation.
[b]We have no business in anyone else's bedroom. If they have more children than they seem able to handle, we have to step up to help without comment. |
This exactly, 10000000 times!!!! Unless you will be helping to care for, raise, and pay for said children, you have no place even discussing whether someone else should be having more children or not.
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Laiya
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:51 am
| southernbubby wrote: | | It's one thing if it's certain that the child will be crippled, such as a woman on teratogenic medication to say that pregnancy should be avoided, but prior to dor yeshorim, couples often buried several children in order to have some that lived. |
But today we do have this information, and we make decisions, and psakim are rendered, based on the information currently available to us.
A similar example would be first cousin marriages. It's possible some kids will be born healthy, but now that we have this information regarding genetics, it's generally accepted to avoid unnecessary risks. I would imagine mainstream rabbonim would say the same.
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Chayalle
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:54 am
I think there's a big difference between capable parents who are committed to the child, having a child in less than ideal circumstances - like those who chose to have a baby during WWII....or today, if there's some financial difficulty or other challenges....and bringing a child into a home where the parents are incapable, deficient or dysfunctional.
I recently had this discussion with a relative (by marriage) who has a sibling with mild special needs, and he thinks this sibling could get married...but what about children? This sibling is totally incapable of being a parent, and likely will marry someone like himself....even if others see to it that the children are fed, etc...what about the child's feelings?
A friend of mine in the Special Ed field told me she was involved with a child who was born to two parents who had DS (the child did not have DS and was being raised by other family members.) She told me she felt it was a travesty (and this was a friend who was very RW and not otherwise into BC) because the child had tremendous emotional issues due to his being ashamed of his parentage, and also having to cope with his relationship with them.
I know a family where both parents are limited, intellectually and emotionally, and they have children in the double digits. I can't begin to describe the pain I see there, in a home where there is laundry and garbage piled up from before you enter the house....3/4 of the children have severe emotional, mental, and other limitations/disabilities...and the few that are healthy and normal struggle mightily with having their needs met by outsiders to the family. Neither parent earns much....yes, they have food from gov't programs, and a house, but no money for the therapies the kids need, some aren't in school and just sit around all day....And this woman has continued to have more babies, into her 40's. I asked DH, where are the Rabbanim? Someone needs to tell them something.
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Chayalle
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:56 am
| Laiya wrote: | But today we do have this information, and we make decisions, and psakim are rendered, based on the information currently available to us.
A similar example would be first cousin marriages. It's possible some kids will be born healthy, but now that we have this information regarding genetics, it's generally accepted to avoid unnecessary risks. I would imagine mainstream rabbonim would say the same. |
My grandparents were first cousins, and they had four healthy children B"AH. And there were actually several family marriages in the generations back.
Still, I would never go for a relative shidduch, and I have heard that Rabbanim nowadays discourage such shidduchim (at least in yeshivish circles, which is why it's hardly heard of.)
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Chayalle
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:59 am
| Ema of 4 wrote: | | This exactly, 10000000 times!!!! Unless you will be helping to care for, raise, and pay for said children, you have no place even discussing whether someone else should be having more children or not. |
And someone who is helping care for and raise such children, can they discuss it?
Years ago, when I was fostering a little boy, I told his mother that I will not take another one of her babies if she has one. And I do believe I effectively discouraged her (her mother had passed away, and she thought it would be a beautiful idea to have another baby, who might be a girl...and she can just pass her on to foster care.)
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southernbubby
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:00 am
| Chayalle wrote: | I think there's a big difference between capable parents who are committed to the child, having a child in less than ideal circumstances - like those who chose to have a baby during WWII....or today, if there's some financial difficulty or other challenges....and bringing a child into a home where the parents are incapable, deficient or dysfunctional.
I recently had this discussion with a relative (by marriage) who has a sibling with mild special needs, and he thinks this sibling could get married...but what about children? This sibling is totally incapable of being a parent, and likely will marry someone like himself....even if others see to it that the children are fed, etc...what about the child's feelings?
A friend of mine in the Special Ed field told me she was involved with a child who was born to two parents who had DS (the child did not have DS and was being raised by other family members.) She told me she felt it was a travesty (and this was a friend who was very RW and not otherwise into BC) because the child had tremendous emotional issues due to his being ashamed of his parentage, and also having to cope with his relationship with them.
I know a family where both parents are limited, intellectually and emotionally, and they have children in the double digits. I can't begin to describe the pain I see there, in a home where there is laundry and garbage piled up from before you enter the house....3/4 of the children have severe emotional, mental, and other limitations/disabilities...and the few that are healthy and normal struggle mightily with having their needs met by outsiders to the family. Neither parent earns much....yes, they have food from gov't programs, and a house, but no money for the therapies the kids need, some aren't in school and just sit around all day....And this woman has continued to have more babies, into her 40's. I asked DH, where are the Rabbanim? Someone needs to tell them something. |
Sometimes rabbonim, social workers, and others do tell them something but they don't listen even when threatened with having the children removed from the home.
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Chayalle
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:02 am
| southernbubby wrote: | | Sometimes rabbonim, social workers, and others do tell them something but they don't listen even when threatened with having the children removed from the home. |
That is true  that's what DH said - that maybe they don't listen.
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cbsp
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:04 am
| Ema of 4 wrote: | | And Kimchit was praised for never showing her hair to the walls of her house. That doesn’t mean that’s the ideal. It means that that behavior was extra praiseworthy. Procreation is of very high value, but it is not the ONLY or HIGHEST value. |
On the other hand, after the cheit Chavah is named "aim Kol chai" - despite being the one who brought death to this world. Her value was being a mother in less than ideal circumstances.
Rabbi Reisman had a Navi Shiur called "Plan B" where he discusses the idea of living - and thriving - when things are "less than ideal"
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Laiya
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:04 am
| Chayalle wrote: | My grandparents were first cousins, and they had four healthy children B"AH. And there were actually several family marriages in the generations back.
Still, I would never go for a relative shidduch, and I have heard that Rabbanim nowadays discourage such shidduchim (at least in yeshivish circles, which is why it's hardly heard of.) |
My grandmother lost 4 siblings as babies, and her parents were first cousins. She also had 4 healthy siblings. It's a risk; back then they took it because they didn't know.
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Chayalle
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:08 am
| Laiya wrote: | | My grandmother lost 4 siblings as babies, and her parents were first cousins. She also had 4 healthy siblings. It's a risk; back then they took it because they didn't know. |
Many people lost babies those days for many reasons. My grandfather lost 4 siblings due to an epidemic - ages 7, 6 year old twins, and a baby. Does your family know for a fact that those siblings had genetic issues?
to add, the Sephardic community has tremendous cousin-intermarriage, and I haven't heard that they have more genetic disease there, so how does that work out? My daughter's best friend is Sephardi, and will only date relatives or relative of relatives, or something like that....
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Laiya
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:12 am
| Chayalle wrote: | | Many people lost babies those days for many reasons. My grandfather lost 4 siblings due to an epidemic - ages 7, 6 year old twins, and a baby. Does your family know for a fact that those siblings had genetic issues? |
Omg how horrific. No, there would be no way to know this now. We only know now, that in general, cousin marriages entails a risk.
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OOTforlife
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:13 am
| Chayalle wrote: | I think there's a big difference between capable parents who are committed to the child, having a child in less than ideal circumstances - like those who chose to have a baby during WWII....or today, if there's some financial difficulty or other challenges....and bringing a child into a home where the parents are incapable, deficient or dysfunctional.
I recently had this discussion with a relative (by marriage) who has a sibling with mild special needs, and he thinks this sibling could get married...but what about children? This sibling is totally incapable of being a parent, and likely will marry someone like himself....even if others see to it that the children are fed, etc...what about the child's feelings?
A friend of mine in the Special Ed field told me she was involved with a child who was born to two parents who had DS (the child did not have DS and was being raised by other family members.) She told me she felt it was a travesty (and this was a friend who was very RW and not otherwise into BC) because the child had tremendous emotional issues due to his being ashamed of his parentage, and also having to cope with his relationship with them.
I know a family where both parents are limited, intellectually and emotionally, and they have children in the double digits. I can't begin to describe the pain I see there, in a home where there is laundry and garbage piled up from before you enter the house....3/4 of the children have severe emotional, mental, and other limitations/disabilities...and the few that are healthy and normal struggle mightily with having their needs met by outsiders to the family. Neither parent earns much....yes, they have food from gov't programs, and a house, but no money for the therapies the kids need, some aren't in school and just sit around all day....And this woman has continued to have more babies, into her 40's. I asked DH, where are the Rabbanim? Someone needs to tell them something. |
New York Magazine had a really thoughtful piece exploring this issue a few years ago. You may find it interesting: https://www.thecut.com/2016/01......html
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Chayalle
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:15 am
| Laiya wrote: | | Omg how horrific. No, there would be no way to know this now. We only know now, that in general, cousin marriages entails a risk. |
Not to derail this thread, but that's why they came to the US - they heard there were vaccines in this country. My great-grandfather feared his wife would break down,and he convinced her they'd start anew in a country where children didn't die as much. They had two more children after that B"H.
So losing children back then was unfortunately not uncommon.....
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Sleepymama
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:18 am
| cbsp wrote: | On the other hand, after the cheit Chavah is named "aim Kol chai" - despite being the one who brought death to this world. Her value was being a mother in less than ideal circumstances.
Rabbi Reisman had a Navi Shiur called "Plan B" where he discusses the idea of living - and thriving - when things are "less than ideal" |
I would love to hear that Navi shiur.
Is that online?
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Laiya
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:21 am
| Chayalle wrote: | Not to derail this thread, but that's why they came to the US - they heard there were vaccines in this country. My great-grandfather feared his wife would break down,and he convinced her they'd start anew in a country where children didn't die as much. They had two more children after that B"H.
So losing children back then was unfortunately not uncommon..... |
This is true
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Chayalle
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:43 am
Interesting article. And also sad.
In that case, though, the grandparents' involvement is a big deal.
I wonder what the child will be like at 20......
I think though that it's more of a case of, now that the child is born, what do we do with her....rather than, should she have been born in the first place.
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cbsp
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Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:46 am
| Sleepymama wrote: | I would love to hear that Navi shiur.
Is that online? |
I've never been successful finding those shiurim online for free (there's an option to purchase the mp3s). You've inspired me to look again.
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