Bringing children into non-ideal situations

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cbsp

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:49 am

OOTforlife wrote:

New York Magazine had a really thoughtful piece exploring this issue a few years ago. You may find it interesting: https://www.thecut.com/2016/01......html

Thank you so much for this.

I couldn't help compare it to that Ami(?) article regarding the volunteer foster mom who fought the parents for custody of their preemie child (and the negative comments here regarding the parents having another baby under those circumstances).

amother

Lawngreen

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:50 am

That was a really amazing article.

I think there is so much judgment and not enough compassion. Where do you draw the line?

I just think that so many of the seemingly compelling reasons can be applied and be OK in different situations. Like, if a woman decides to go to medical school and has her mother watching the kids all the time or a caregiver always being there, well, that's OK. Because she's so brilliant and going to be having a skilled job at the end and hopefully the money to care for the kids. But I know a woman whose mother is a doctor and she said her dream her whole life was to be a stay at home mom and she hated it because her own mom was never there. What makes one OK and the other not if both are not present moms.

What prejudices do people bring that color what they believe are norms?

This conversation, I don't know. Its just too harsh. And sometimes the people who work in the fields are so judgmental... I don't know.. In my own situations in dealing with children who don't fit the perfect Lakewood mold, sometimes I look at all these women I have to deal with... And I smile and thank them and all... But a lot of times I think Walk a mile in my shoes, lady, walk a mile...

cbsp

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:53 am

Sleepymama wrote:

I would love to hear that Navi shiur.
Is that online?

It's available for purchase here :

http://www.navishiur.org/produ.....I-59/

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:06 am

I think some people don't understand the magnitude in Yiddishkeit of being denied doros.

SixOfWands

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:08 am

Laiya wrote:

Omg how horrific. No, there would be no way to know this now. We only know now, that in general, cousin marriages entails a risk.

While I personally find the notion of first cousins marrying to be revolting, the risks apparently are not that high. https://www.nytimes.com/2002/0......html

OOTforlife

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:11 am

Glad some of you found the article interesting. I agree with the previous poster that there is too much judgment in these discussions. Don't get me wrong, I think harsh-seeming judgments sometimes have to be made for the welfare of children. But some amothers here seem to downright relish the judging.

Also, I sometimes find the standards absurd. If you listen to some people, children should only be born to full tuition payers, people who can afford ample extracurricular activities, and people who can give every child 30 minutes of one-on-one time every day. While I think these are great goals to aspire to, I don't consider them prerequisites for reproduction.

Ema of 5

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:11 am

Chayalle wrote:

And someone who is helping care for and raise such children, can they discuss it?

Years ago, when I was fostering a little boy, I told his mother that I will not take another one of her babies if she has one. And I do believe I effectively discouraged her (her mother had passed away, and she thought it would be a beautiful idea to have another baby, who might be a girl...and she can just pass her on to foster care.)

I think each situation of people other than the parents taking care of the children is unique, and a blanket statement shouldn’t be made. (Although I guess I did make one, so I will clarify by saying GENERALLY)

southernbubby

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:12 am

I really loved the article and was very happy that Sara got Dana back. It sounded like the child would grow up in her loving biological family. It doesn't appear that Sara had another child after Dana was born so her family's struggles were minimized.
What would the outcome have been if Sara would have continued to have children? As an only child, Dana will get the best of what this family can offer.
If Sara would have been Jewish and married, would rabbonim have considered the obligation of p'ru urvu fullfilled by giving birth only to Dana?

amother

cornflower

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:12 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I think some people don't understand the magnitude in Yiddishkeit of being denied doros.

One can have Doros from a smaller family, too.

Some people don't know what it's like to have grown up in a home with dysfunctional parents....being like a parent to several younger siblings before I was 10.

SixOfWands

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:18 am

Every child should be wanted. Every child should be provided for.

While things do happen, there should always be consideration given before a woman decides to try to get pregnant. How will she care for the child? Is there a reasonable expectation that she will be able to support the child, both financially and emotionally. Are there other supportive figures in her life to create the proverbial village. A loving spouse. And/Or others.

So IMNSHO, a couple who have trouble feeding the kids they have, whose electricity has been shut off 3 times in the past year and can't afford shoes for their first grader, and who have no plans on how to increase income should think long and hard about having another kid. Think.

But so should the couple with 2.3 kids who are doing quite well. Its probably an easier equation for them, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't give it consideration.

In the end, though, everyone has to figure it out for themselves. If they're the person who can handle 18 kids without breaking a sweat, or who freaks out with 2 and breaks out in hives when a toy is out of place. And so on. There's no universal answer.

And that applies to single mothers by choice as well.

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:19 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

One can have Doros from a smaller family, too.

Only if the non-ideal situation is one where there are already children.

Ema of 5

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:24 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I think some people don't understand the magnitude in Yiddishkeit of being denied doros.

But at the end of the day, that’s not really up to us. We can do (or not do) everything in our power, but HaShem is really the one who decides whether or not we have children.
There are also other ways to have doros, aside from having children. They may not carry ones name, but a person can still live on through other means. Otherwise, what would be the purpose of a childless couple, or someone who never marries? Is there really no way for them and their legacy to continue on? Sara Schneirer (however you spell it) never had kids, yet I’m pretty sure all the Bais Yaakov girls and their children would be considered her doros, even though they don’t carry her name.

Ema of 5

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:27 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Only if the non-ideal situation is one where there are already children.

Can you please explain? I don’t understand what you are saying.

Chayalle

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:27 am

southernbubby wrote:

I was thinking the same thing....similar to the situation I was describing in a previous post. Imagine if Sara had 10 children. Imagine if 3 of them are cognitively normal and 7 of them have similar abilities to their mother. Imagine them in the Jewish school system.

After the first few children, school A refuses to accept any more. They already are overburdened with those children taking a huge share of the limited Catapult (special ed, tutoring) funds allocated to the school by the state/township/etc...

Another school takes another one of the children, is overwhelmed, and won't accept the next child.

Next child gets into school for children with severe learning disabilities, and is there for a couple of years. School quickly realizes there are no tuition $$$ forthcoming. After a few years, school folds from lack of teachers who will work for free. Child has been sitting home doing nothing since - it's a few years already. Child is a teen with the intellectual capacity of an 8 year old.

Another child is normal. There is a battle between school A and school B, who both try to get the other school to take the child, fearing there may be issues and no one will address them or pay for them. A day or 2 before school starts, with all the neighbors (myself included) begging and vouching for the child, School A finally takes her. Child is doing okay but struggles socially in a world of perfect little bow-bedeked princesses who come to school every day with ironed uniforms, etc....

I could go on and on. Lets not discuss when the children graduate the school system.

southernbubby

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:30 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

We Chabadniks are all the Rebbe's children. He once told a mother, whose only son was in the IDF, that each member of the IDF was his only son.

behappy2

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:35 am

I am not sure but I think the viewpoint is generally on the mother. Will the pregnancy, caring for the child harm her? If not I dont think it is ok from a Torah point of view not to have more.

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:38 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

Can you please explain? I don’t understand what you are saying.

If a couple chooses not to have children in the future, that leaves them childless unless they already have a child.

amother

cornflower

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:42 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

If a couple chooses not to have children in the future, that leaves them childless unless they already have a child.

I think your point is, to have Doros, there will be at least one child born in a family situation that is non-ideal.

And my point is, sometimes it becomes way more non-ideal when lots of children are born into that situation.

southernbubby

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:42 am

Chayalle wrote:

Lots of families in the community need help and we do what we can to help. When my father took me as a child to the Ozarks to see what real poverty was (we were always complaining about what we did not have), these people lived in shacks with no running water and either no access to contraception or they rejected it but they had lots of hungry, dirty, barefoot urchins.

Chayalle

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:46 am

southernbubby wrote:

Yeah I hear you. Sometimes feels like we can't do enough to help.

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