Bringing children into non-ideal situations

southernbubby

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 8:48 am

SixOfWands wrote:

Every child should be wanted. Every child should be provided for.

While things do happen, there should always be consideration given before a woman decides to try to get pregnant. How will she care for the child? Is there a reasonable expectation that she will be able to support the child, both financially and emotionally. Are there other supportive figures in her life to create the proverbial village. A loving spouse. And/Or others.

So IMNSHO, a couple who have trouble feeding the kids they have, whose electricity has been shut off 3 times in the past year and can't afford shoes for their first grader, and who have no plans on how to increase income should think long and hard about having another kid. Think.

But so should the couple with 2.3 kids who are doing quite well. Its probably an easier equation for them, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't give it consideration.

In the end, though, everyone has to figure it out for themselves. If they're the person who can handle 18 kids without breaking a sweat, or who freaks out with 2 and breaks out in hives when a toy is out of place. And so on. There's no universal answer.

And that applies to single mothers by choice as well.

And if a single woman who you know gives birth by choice, there is a great solution. You find out where she registered for baby gifts and send to her like you send to everyone else. She has probably been giving others baby gifts for years.

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 8:48 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

I think your point is, to have Doros, there will be at least one child born in a family situation that is non-ideal.

No, it's that "You can still have Doros with a small family" is not relevant when talking about the first child.

ora_43

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:40 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I think some people don't understand the magnitude in Yiddishkeit of being denied doros.

Because if they did, they'd be like, "never mind, go ahead and have a child, even though you're chronically unemployed, alcoholic, and prone to fits of rage"?

Look, it's clear what you think from the use of "non-ideal," as if anyone has said that only picture-perfect families should be allowed to have children.

But I think maybe you don't understand the level of dysfunction in some homes. "Non-ideal" is a spectrum and there's a point on the spectrum at which it gets frankly terrifying. No child deserves to be born into a situation where they'll be mistreated, or effectively have no real parents, just so someone can have their doros.

Laiya

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:43 am

SixOfWands wrote:

While I personally find the notion of first cousins marrying to be revolting, the risks apparently are not that high. https://www.nytimes.com/2002/0......html

I'm not able to access the article but it was from 2002, so I'd be interested to see something more current.

Just like any endogamous culture will have a higher rate of genetic diseases because of centuries of marrying within the same gene pool, the more closely related 2 people are, the more likely that they are both carriers of the same genetic mutation.

But even so. How much increased risk in having a child with a genetic disease should be acceptable?

amother

Ecru

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:47 am

Laiya wrote:

Or, to expand on this: Couple X did Dor Yesharim, but it was discovered later there was a mixup and she had used her younger sister's number instead of her own. In fact they are both carriers. Now they are already married. Should they have children? There is a 30-50% risk of genetic issues.

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:47 am

ora_43 wrote:

Because if they did, they'd be like, "never mind, go ahead and have a child, even though you're chronically unemployed, alcoholic, and prone to fits of rage"?

No, because some say others shouldn't have children as though it doesn't mean anything at all.

southernbubby

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:57 am

Laiya wrote:

Granddaughter of first cousin marriage here Wave

And look how perfect I turned out Wink

Last edited by southernbubby on Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:58 am; edited 1 time in total

SixOfWands

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:58 am

southernbubby wrote:

Same for the family lacking resources, or the parent so harried you wonder why she's having another kid.

The only appropriate response to news of a birth is "mazel tov." Because whatever thought did or should have gone into conception, and whether or not you think she should have had a baby, she did. Mazel tov.

SixOfWands

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:02 am

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

Carrier of what? And is IVF with pre-implantation testing possible?

southernbubby

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:04 am

SixOfWands wrote:

She doesn't have to ask my sage advice nor is she expecting me to babysit. A candy tray for the shalom zachor, is the right thing to do as well as show up because the party is about her friends.
And if this non-related child decides to call me "bubby", well it certainly can't hurt to have more grandchildren.

ora_43

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:28 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

No, because some say others shouldn't have children as though it doesn't mean anything at all.

That's your interpretation.

It's also possible that they agree that having children is a wonderful thing, and a big part of life for those who do it, and yet still disagree with you on whether it's right to have kids in a certain situation.

There are reasons for people to disagree beyond just, Person A is right and Person B is an ignoramus who, if she'd seen what Person A has seen in life, would surely agree with her.

southernbubby

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:51 am

Even child protective services, whose job it is to decide if parents are too neglectful or abusive to raise children, try to avoid letting their own ideas, culture, and preferences interfere with making a fair decision.

An example is messy housekeeping. Is the house simply "lived in" or is it dangerous?

amother

Crimson

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:52 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

No Rav is going to pasken that someone may not get pregnant, unless it's a clear, clear sakanah. And I'm not even sure then.

Sorry, you're wrong. We were having issues in our marriage at the begininng and our (very right wing) rav said that I'm not allowed to get pregnant. We didn't ask anything about bc, he said that out of his own accord.

Chayalle

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:12 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Really? You think tone can't come across clearly in an online comment? Hmm. Well, I guess you're entitled to your opinion.

I always figure I might be mistaken on tone. I try not to make assumptions, because not everyone expresses themselves well in writing. I know that many times I feel like I haven't really gotten across what I want to say online, because I'm limited by my writing abilities and the words that come to me at the given moment.

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:16 am

Chayalle wrote:

Again, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I guess not everyone has the skills to communicate tone in the written word.