Debate on women learning Gemara s/o

1ofbillions

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 1:30 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

I was waiting for this, so I'll explain now. Of course mesorah changes and that is where I mentioned that we need rabbanim to say that this is what we should do. Bais Yaakov was backed by rabbanim. It was a new idea but was only done with the haskama and agreement of gedolei hador.
If our gedolei hador would say that we should learn gemara today - great! But they didn't. At least not in my communities.
And what do you mean by "the kollel system rests upon femenism"? What is the femenism there? Women working? That isn't what I meant by femenism.

You can’t deny that without feminism, women wouldn’t be working. Without women working, men wouldn’t be able to get away with learning in kollel instead of fulfilling their obligation in the kesubah to support their family.

Mommyg8

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 1:34 pm

1ofbillions wrote:

This is an interesting question... because I wonder if the positions are actually reversed. Feminism - at least the part of feminism that pushed women into the workforce - was started by a Jewish woman and Jewish women - at least in Lithuania - have always been part of the workforce, more so than the their non-Jewish counterparts.

From the book "There Once Was a World" by Yaffa Eliach:

"From the sixteenth century on, the ideal husband for an Eastern European Jewish girl was the scholar, the diligent, promising yeshivah student. Hence the criteria for the bride were that she be the daughter of well-to-do parents who were eager and able to support the scholar and his young family during the early years of their marriage, in an arrangement known as kest. Offering kest allowed the husband to continue his studies, while the bride, ideally an industrious, strong, healthy young woman, established a business of her own that would eventually enable her to take upon herself the financial responsibility for her husband and their children. During this period, the wife (and sometimes her husband) might receive training in the family business, as preparation for becoming a worker or a partner in it, or might learn a craft or a trade, or might do agricultural work. The duration of the kest period was according to the husband’s level of scholarship. The greater the scholar and the higher the hopes for his intellectual growth and achievements, the longer the kest."

gingertop

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 1:45 pm

1ofbillions wrote:

Agree and disagree with this statement. Feminism definitely opened many more options for modern women but on the other hand, Judaism is pre-feminist. Eishes Chayil describes a woman with business sense, who is shrewd and motivated and hardworking.

The idea that women all did nothing prior to the suffragist is oversimplified. Many women co-owned or completely owned family businesses such as shops, printing presses, and bakeries.

amother

Brunette

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 1:51 pm

When I said feminism I was quoting amother fuchsias use for the term, in the context of women doing something just because, "If the men can, why can't we too?"
Women who are working so their husbands can learn are not doing it to prove that they can be just as good as the guys. They are not trying to equate themselves to men and show that they are just as good (which is what the women learning gemara seem to imply).

amother

Lime

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 1:52 pm

I agree that women have worked for ages, also pre-feminism.
However, feminism opened a lot more doors. Without feminism, kollel wives would all need to open small businesses or become sheitel machers or something.

Feminism opened the doors of higher education for women. Allowed them to get real degrees. Made it illegal to pay women a fraction of what men get for the same job.

amother

Lime

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 1:55 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

It's extremely demeaning to claim that feminism is all about doing what men are doing. Just because.

Sorry, I want the vote, equal pay, equal rights, the right not to be s@xually harrassed, the right to my own bank account, etc etc, because I deserve them. As a human being. Not 'just because' men have them.

That is feminism.

gingertop

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 1:59 pm

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

Right, I made that point as well. However, higher education for anyone besides the royal class is a relatively new thing as well.

Is there a substantial hashkafic difference between a frum woman who is a midwife in the 18th century and a frum woman who is an RN today?

I think that in general some of the anti-feminism in the frum world is laughable. We never were exclusively nice society women. Women in tanach and gemara and throughout were not a whole bunch of trad women who only served cake and tea and smiled stupidly.

I think in general, if you want to oppose a project, it being feminist should not be enough of a reason to consider it inappropriate for frum women.

naturalmom5

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 2:06 pm

gingertop wrote:

I don't think it's becoming a thing. Most frum women are extremely busy and the schools aren't doing real gemara learning yet. It's hard to learn outside of a real framework. Best gemara learning I had was in sem but that was limited to specific pages. It requires motivation and persistence. I don't think I'll manage to do the cycle. I have some time so I want to try.

I don't think the schools will start incorporating gemara. Sarah Schenirer had plenty of opposition to what she did but times were so desperate and so many women were just learning in gymnasiums, that she got support from leading Rabbanim.
There is no similar community-wide problem and without problems, we don't have revolutions. Things will change slowly, if at all.

Ginger I am very happy to hear that in your reality this so
In my circles I see SO MANY girls and women that either at risk , OTD completely, or just reverse Maranos

Something has to be done to inspire them.

Mommyg8

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 2:11 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

This.

You don't even have to be in your circles - just read through some of the threads here on imamother...

amother

Chartreuse

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 2:17 pm

what thread is this a spin off from?

gingertop

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 2:18 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

I should rephrase what I wrote because 100% that is my experience as well. I see huge problems with the frum world today.
I just don't see that there is enough top-down recognition of the problems. There can only be a revolution if people think that the current reality is not sustainable. The people with power still think it is sustainable so that's where I'm coming from. Not trying to deny thelack of inspiration at every level.

malki2

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 2:20 pm

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

Mesorahs change. There was no mesorah of women learning any formal Torah either only a short while ago.
Bais Yaakov is a relatively modern invention.

As for saying 'it sounds like feminism '. Is that supposed to be funny? The whole kollel system rests upon feminism, depends upon it for its very existence.
Or is feminism only 'kosher' when it's used to uplift men?

Mesorahs? The Gemara that says that women should not learn Gemara is a Halacha. Not a Mesorah. And it’s not Torah Shebeal Peh that is the problem. There was always a line drawn at Gemara.

gingertop

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 2:25 pm

malki2 wrote:

Mesorahs? The Gemara that says that women should not learn Gemara is a Halacha. Not a Mesorah. And it’s not Torah Shebeal Peh that is the problem. There was always a line drawn at Gemara.

Can you cite your sources? Because as far as I know, it's a suggestion, not a halacha. Not every word that is discussed in gemarah got codified in the tur and shulchan aruch. Some discussions are not halachic in nature, in some cases, the halacha is paskened by different tanaim/amoraim than the ones whose quote can out of context seem like halacha.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 2:31 pm

amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:

It’s Definetly a feminist approach in my opinion! Like if the guys can do it so can I. I really don’t think it’s considered normal at al. I will
Leave this learning to men. Women have so much they can learn without competing with the men.

In some circles (dati leumi and modern orthodox) there are actually schools where women are learning gemara in depth. And I am 100% positive that it is not women who want to be like men. They just want the same opportunity to learn gemara because they find it interesting.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 2:35 pm

malki2 wrote:

I can ask my Rav. What I am interested in understand is, in general, is this becoming a “thing” in Frum circles? Did your Rav recommend/permit this? Do others? That’s all I’m trying to find out.

I know that YU in america (and probably other programs as well) and Nishmat in Israel (and other programs as well) are initating actual gemara studying programs, where women are studying gemara, in depth. And these are places of study with rabbinic auspices, so I think you can assume, that yes, there are rabbanim that are oking the study of gemara for women.

Ema of 5

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 2:37 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

I was waiting for this, so I'll explain now. Of course mesorah changes and that is where I mentioned that we need rabbanim to say that this is what we should do. Bais Yaakov was backed by rabbanim. It was a new idea but was only done with the haskama and agreement of gedolei hador.[/b] If our gedolei hador would say that we should learn gemara today - great! But they didn't. At least not in my communities.
And what do you mean by "the kollel system rests upon femenism"? What is the femenism there? Women working? That isn't what I meant by femenism.

I’m pretty sure that she started with more opposition than backing, and only when her success was apparent did she get more backing.

malki2

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 2:40 pm

gingertop wrote:

Shulchan Aruch Yore De'ah 246, Se'if 6

PinkFridge

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 2:44 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I'm not sure why this topic is up for debate.

This is a halachic question, and everyone follows their own mesorah, or better, their own psak or daas Torah or whatever you want to call it.

What's interesting to me is that the reasons Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik gives for women learning Gemarah nowadays are very similar to the ones I have heard the Litvish schools explaining why we learn inside at all - the fact that the world has changed and women are learning secular studies on a more intellectual level, the fact that women have more time today, the fact women have lost their own mesorah... A quote from Rabbi Soloveitchik from the book written by David Holzer - ".. the main bulk of her knowledge she absorbed by osmosis. Jewish houses were full of knowledge. All you had to do was open your mouth, and drink it down. But now the Jewish home is not knowledgeable - and I mean the Orthodox. The intuition, the feeling, the experience is missing..."

Oh my, so many random thoughts.
First of all, Joy, thanks for starting this thread. I had charata before I left the house that I didn't invite someone (anyone who wanted) to start a spinoff.

I'm choosing this quote to snip (I haven't read anything past it yet) because of something my principal said the better part of 40 years ago and that was that seminary (not pushing EY but the concept of seminary) was important because most of us were going to be going on for advanced secular degrees and we had to have some higher level of sophistication in our learning. Which I feel I got in seminary. I got exposure to so much more, in machshava, halacha, texts we hadn't learned, and beyond. I would say this is still true for many women, that as much as a typical BY teaches, there is still so much more we can learn in seminary and beyond.

What we can and should be doing in the home is incredibly important. There is a lot of general knowledge we can impart, as far as halacha and inyanei deyoma, and enthusiasm for Torah, learning, and Torah living. If we have the headspace, we can learn and share what we've learned. Even a brief shiur, or reading a devar Torah in one of the weeklies is great. It shows our kids that we value Torah growth for ourselves in addition to facilitating the family's growth. (Because that's what we do: we are the producers of the daily show called, My Family.) As we get older, we can and should do more, whether it's attending shiurim, or tuning into some weekly or regular shiur, teaching others through Partners in Torah, etc. And we have to raise kids who will look at us and our contributions with the same respect as their fathers who may be putting in a lot more time. We're all partners in producing the best Klal Yisrael we can.

As women, we don't have the mitzvah of limud Torah and ameilus. But we are responsible to be connected to Torah. We don't need to say, we've seen every daf. Do we need to say we've seen every page of Torah shebiksav? I don't think so either, but that would be a really amazing goal. For me, that kind of learning is more satisfying.

Which brings me to something else: I wasn't going to take on anyone on the other thread. First of all, I sensed a lot of objective sincerity there, I.e this was an objective goal for me, not subjective as compared to the boys. But second, I find the whole discussion fascinating. I have a good head. If I would have had the same background the boys do, years of flashcards, mishnayos, etc., and then the time, I could have learned gemara too. But there are a few things. One is, it's ingrained in me that learning gemara isn't for dabblers, which I would be. Another is, especially if someone's taking on the daf, there needs to be the continuity. I know that I wold get no sipuk hanefesh from a good part of it. It's not the type of learning I find satisfying. (Could one posit that since we're not obligated in yegia we might not be wired for it? That would be interesting but I'm not going to go there.)

Last week I just happened to have come across a series of history lectures on OU Torah by R. Dr. Dovid Katz on...forgot what it's called, People of the Book maybe, talking about Torah she'b'al peh and its being put into writing. There was a fun line in the first of the series, about how before it was written down, the halachos were given over, and each person giving it over had a different approach. He said something about he or she would give them over.
Tzaruch iyun IMO though he didn't elaborate.

gingertop

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 2:45 pm

malki2 wrote:

Shulchan Aruch Yore De'ah 246, Se'if 6

It doesn't say that it's assur. It's a discussion if it's wise, if a woman gets reward

אשה שלמדה תורה יש לה שכר אבל לא כשכר האיש מפני שאינה מצווה ועושה ואע"פ שיש לה שכר צוו חז"ל שלא ילמד אדם את בתו תורה מפני שרוב הנשים אין דעתן מכוונת להתלמד ומוציאות דברי תורה לדברי הבאי לפי עניות דעתן אמרו חכמים כל המלמד את בתו תורה כאילו מלמדה תיפלות (פי' דבר עבירה) בד"א תורה שבע"פ אבל תורה שבכתב לא ילמד אותה לכתחלה ואם מלמדה אינו כמלמד' תיפלות (רמב"ם וסמ"ג ולא כמקצת ספרי הטור) : הגה ומ"מ חייבת האשה ללמוד דינים השייכים לאשה (אגור בשם סמ"ג) ואשה אינה חייבת ללמד את בנה תורה ומ"מ אם עוזרת לבנה או לבעלה שיעסקו בתורה חולקת שכר בהדייהו (הגהות מיי' פ"א דת"ת וסמ"ג):

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 2:47 pm

malki2 wrote:

Shulchan Aruch Yore De'ah 246, Se'if 6

Have you actually read this gemara? I just looked it up. It is not a set in stone halacha, its a conversation at best.

:ETA: I see gingertop wrote the same Smile