A get | Imamother

amother

Crimson

Thu, Jan 16 2020, 6:20 pm

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

And what if the man is infertile?

Obviously they didn't know who had the fertility issue, but the man is the one with the mitzva of p'ru u'rvu.

I am very uncomfortable with the parshios of Yaakov and his many wives. It makes me think about how much I reeeally don't want my husband to have another wife.

trixx

Thu, Jan 16 2020, 9:39 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

Ah right, no paternity tests in those days. I didn't realize that was the issue in terms of needing to know who father is for some reason lol

Hello!! Shevatim!! Practically - their order of camping for 40 years and then when entering Israel, Division of land and responsibilities (ex supporting Levi) during all the years they lived there.

Last edited by trixx on Thu, Jan 16 2020, 9:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

trixx

Thu, Jan 16 2020, 9:42 pm

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

OK but half the Imamother intimacy threads would be resolved lol (not in the mood, drive mismatch, can't get clean..)
Otoh it would open a whole new topic LOL

Listen there's a reason it was outlawed - it had long ceased working

amother

Mistyrose

Thu, Jan 16 2020, 10:23 pm

The Get is not part of the Torah. It was developed much later on. Having more than one wife was part of the Torah and very normal in those times and I believe the reason many are not fine with it today is because it doesn’t have a place in our culture , we are not used to it, and we can’t even imagine what it what it would be like. It probably would solve many problems though including the shidduch crisis Very Happy

I say get rid of the get and bring back polygamy.

amother

Mistyrose

Thu, Jan 16 2020, 10:26 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

Exactly. The Rashi (quoting the Gemara) which says that a man whose wife didn't give birth after 10 years must take another wife always disturbed me. According to statistics, infertility is a 50-50 proposition in terms of male vs. female factor (or both).

Every incidence of infertility covered in the Torah is female. There is no mention at all of an infertile male. Could it be that male infertility is a new health problem?

amother

Mauve

Thu, Jan 16 2020, 10:29 pm

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

I say get rid of the get and bring back polygamy.

Not sure how normal it was. There are not too many examples of it (even in Tanach), and the examples I can think of (e.g. Rochel/Leah, Chana/Peninah, etc.) seem to have been pretty unhappy . . .

amother

Pearl

Thu, Jan 16 2020, 10:33 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

Actually something along these lines was on my mind all day and I wanted to post but didn't know how to go about it.

The whole concept about men having multiple wives, being in charge of a get, etc.

And like the whole concept of polygamy in torah. Our kids are literally learning about yaakov moving bed in different tents and leah being the hated one. How was this ok?

Then I have this thought- will there be polygamy when moshiach comes?

I am just so uncomfortable with this.

It really bothers me too and I figure either it wont be permitted or it will, but when Moshiach comes we'll have been given such a satisfactory explanation of why it's ok - good even - that it wont bother us one bit.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Jan 16 2020, 10:51 pm

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

I say get rid of the get and bring back polygamy.

Bring back polygamy? I hope you are being sarcastic.

Yes, having more than one wife was normal in those days, and yes we are not fine with it because our culture is not fine with it. So? Not everything that was culturally acceptable then makes it ideal.

Polygamy is terrible for women. Sure, it MAY seem like there are some advantages (sister wives for companionship, less pressure to have s@x, more help with the kids, etc) but really there are only disadvantages in 90% of the cases. There is a reason why the other wife is called a צרה traditionally. The sister wives were NOT usually friends - very often they were enemies- and if they each live in their own compound, then you aren't getting more help.

A co-wife gets less to no help from her dh (he's too busy), and gets FAR less money. She's practically a single mother.

I'm leaving aside all issues of love and jealousy. Let's assume it's just a business arrangement. Even then, women need companionship. More than half the time you would be lonely. And women with healthy drive would end up s@xually frustrated.

I really hope you were being sarcastic.

(Now, I can see this arrangement working if it's more like 'an open marriage', with the dh being used as an involved sperm donor with benefits, but with the 'wife' realizing she is pretty much a single mom, and having the freedom to fulfill her needs elsewhere. But of course a frum woman can't do that).

amother

Slategray

Thu, Jan 16 2020, 10:55 pm

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

I can’t think of why any woman would be willing to be in a marriage with a co-wife - but then, maybe I’m not too good at sharing . . .

Why would a woman share all the good things, and be left with all the burdens on her own? What exactly is in it for her?

She would share her dh's parnassa, share his time and attention, share his s@xual drive, share her social status (being a second or third wife trailing behind her dh in public is not exactly a respectable position).
She would be left with all the household burden, most of the parnassa, most of the child raising.
Why exactly would she want that?

trixx

Thu, Jan 16 2020, 11:02 pm

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

I say get rid of the get and bring back polygamy.

Most weren't fine with it even then from Torah onwards and in later years it was causing terrible issues hence the ban.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Jan 16 2020, 11:04 pm

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

If the marriage was entered into on condition of only one wife, I don’t the husband can take a second wife without the first wife’s consent. I think that should cover all current marriages. (Even Sefardim usually have a clause in the kesubah, in which they agree not to take a second wife.)

That works only if the culture is adamantly against taking a second wife.

If the culture promotes second or third wives, then the first wife's 'consent' is worth very little. In fact, she will probably internalize the value that it's only fair to allow her dh a second wife, and she will feel bad if she refuses. Her dh will also internalize that value, and will be angry at his wife if she refuses, and maybe even threaten divorce.

'Consent' does not exist in a vacuum. If everybody is doing it, it's really hard to decide to rebel, and it comes at a cost.

Ruchel

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 2:28 am

cnc wrote:

Because lehalacha a man is permitted to be married to more than one person at a time, while a woman can’t.

Doesn't explain why she is stuck, that's him. Also he's not allowed to be married to someone he doesn't uphold his obligations to

Most sefardim outside of arabic countries stopped CENTURIES if not millenia ago. The Turkish Jews were known as "those with one wife". And that's muslim country. There is a Provençal rabbi who wrote about the second wife being a pest or plague (same word). And lastly you need two dwellings AND you need the first wife to be c'v considered infertile. Look up Montefiore census and see the last wife is the one with children (each wife is rapported to her children). Let's not see s-xual fantasies on Sefardim.

amother

Plum

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 3:32 am

trixx wrote:

The real answer is the whole get thing should have been changed by Anshei Knesses Hagedolah thousands of years ago same way Rabbeinu Gershom outlawed polygamy, but it didn't happen, and then each subsequent generation didn't/couldn't change the halacha, being lesser in holiness.

Maybe so, but the question is why did hashem put a rule in the Torah that is seemingly abusive to women? You're saying the Anshei knesses hagedola should've corrected the problem. Why did hashem put in place a system that is so unreasonable?

Ema of 5

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 4:05 am

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

Ah right, no paternity tests in those days. I didn't realize that was the issue in terms of needing to know who father is for some reason lol

Also, I believe that paternity tests aren’t accepted within halacha. So, for example, let’s say a woman has an affair and gets pregnant and isn’t sure who the father is, halacha will say that her husband is the father, even if she gets a paternity test done which proves otherwise.