A get | Imamother

Aylat

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 4:10 am

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

The Get is not part of the Torah. It was developed much later on. Having more than one wife was part of the Torah and very normal in those times and I believe the reason many are not fine with it today is because it doesn’t have a place in our culture , we are not used to it, and we can’t even imagine what it what it would be like. It probably would solve many problems though including the shidduch crisis Very Happy

I say get rid of the get and bring back polygamy.

The get is from the Torah. Devarim 24:1

Studious

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 5:13 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Polygamy is complicated. It actually was a great option for women who would be vulnerable without it. And the avos and imahos were worlds apart from say those who had 2 wives, one for beauty, one for procreation.

I hope that any child learning about Leah being the hated one learns that chas v'shalom Yaakov actually hated her. She just felt very vulnerable and not first choice. And yet, she was the one who was the wife of Yaakov in the spiritual world, buried with him and mother of royalty and kehuna. We can't learn this simplistically.

Polygamy was obviously not a good option for Leah. She was manifestly hated. You could just as well say slavery is a good option for a vulnerable woman. Solves some problems and creates many more. You should read Avraham Grossman’s book on medieval Jewish women. His reading of the historical evidence is that polygamy creates intense hatred and misery. The wives hated each other. The kids hated each other.

Ema of 5

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 5:43 am

Studious wrote:

Sounds interesting!! What is it called?

Orchid

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 6:13 am

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

Every incidence of infertility covered in the Torah is female. There is no mention at all of an infertile male. Could it be that male infertility is a new health problem?

Possibly. Male infertility is rising, so it's possible it was close to zero thousands of years ago. Right now, the male is more likely than the female to be the infertile one in the relationship. Possible causes are plastics in the environment, trilcosan (now banned in antibiotic soap but not toothpaste), vaccines (yup, I said that). A whole host of environmental factors and suspicions. But it is a fact that male infertility is rising in western cultures.
https://www.theguardian.com/sc.....alved

So, the torah didn't mention male infertility because it's relatively new problem affecting western countries.

zaq

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 6:32 am

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

Hear you, but still doesn’t answer the question. Why is a woman bound to him. Why can’t she marry more than one person at a time?

Because that would put into question the paternity of any child she had. whoever delivers a child knows exactly who the mother is. Who the father is may be up for debate.

So why is it important to know for certain who the dad is? Preventing accidental incest, if nothing else. Determining bechorah and inheritance rights as well.

If one wanted to be cynical, one could say that from a group survival standpoint, very few males are needed. With one fertile male and sufficient fertile females you could fairly quickly repopulate a species that was near extinction because one male can impregnate many females. You need many females to increase the size of the herd .One female and umpteen males will guarantee a swift drop in numbers. In fact, poultry ranchers get rid of most of the male chicks and raise only the females. You need only one rooster at a time.

Why do you think most korbanot are male? Because if you sacrificed the females you’d wipe out your herd pretty fast.

So from a biological standpoint, multiple females sharing one male works quite well, while multiple males sharing one female is a waste of resources.

Hashem_Yaazor

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 6:36 am

Studious wrote:

Her alternative was to marry Eisav. This was definitely a better option. And at the time of the dudaim incident, she actually ended up with a transformed relationship with Yakov choosing her and desiring her, and her ending up being buried with him. She merited the most shevatim out of all the wives, no small feat, including Yissachar who the Sanhedrin came from, Yehuda who malchus came from....

amother

Maroon

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 6:54 am

Ruchel wrote:

It's never must. There were rebbes who didn't divorce

¨Paternity test is not recommended for obvious reasons but it's not disregarded if done - very very tricky

Can you please explain? I’m feeling a bit stupid but I can’t figure out the obvious reasons

amother

Indigo

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 7:05 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

Also, I believe that paternity tests aren’t accepted within halacha. So, for example, let’s say a woman has an affair and gets pregnant and isn’t sure who the father is, halacha will say that her husband is the father, even if she gets a paternity test done which proves otherwise.

Interesting. Why is this so? Even before paternity tests, weren't women who had an affair suspect?
I have no background in this area of learning. Would love to hear more, if you know more.

As for polygamy in general, we do have to understand that the union of a couple was very different than it is today. I wish I could remember where I read up on this, because it was quite fascinating. I can't remember if this was in one particular culture, or the general culture, but things were very different. The general feel was that women's families were closer to them than their husbands. I know there's rayim, ahuvim, etc. from way back when, but practically speaking, the deep closeness and friendship we expect in a relationship wasn't necessarily there. Women's first loyalty often was to their families.
Many examples of this were given, but I can't remember. wish someone could help me out.

Ruchel

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 8:14 am

Infertile man isn't c'v allowed to marry in the gemara
BH obviously nowadays there has been ways etc
I also don't envy their fertility test
And if you read holy woman, her husband gave HER the opportunity to divorce "to find another husband" (so ya)

gamanit

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 8:29 am

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

Every incidence of infertility covered in the Torah is female. There is no mention at all of an infertile male. Could it be that male infertility is a new health problem?

Tamar wasn't infertile. Neither was Rus.

gamanit

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 8:29 am

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

Exactly. The Rashi (quoting the Gemara) which says that a man whose wife didn't give birth after 10 years must take another wife always disturbed me. According to statistics, infertility is a 50-50 proposition in terms of male vs. female factor (or both).

Why does that bother you? If there's no way to determine which one is infertile shouldn't the husband have a 50% chance of having a child?

imorethanamother

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 8:35 am

amother [ Indigo ] wrote:

The general feel was that women's families were closer to them than their husbands. I know there's rayim, ahuvim, etc. from way back when, but practically speaking, the deep closeness and friendship we expect in a relationship wasn't necessarily there. Women's first loyalty often was to their families.
Many examples of this were given, but I can't remember. wish someone could help me out.

If we’re talking about Jews, this isn’t true necessarily. Since men inherited land, and since their land was in their shevet, women had to uproot themselves and live with their husband. Shimshon comes to mind- his mother was from Yehudah and his father from Dan. The Bnos Tzelafchad had to be instructed to only marry men from their tribe.

To answer the OPs original question - the new wave in Halacha is the halachic prenup, to prevent the willful agunah situation you see today. There was a write up in mishpacha about it. Even the Agudah is on board. Chachamim May be slow to act when they see abuse and corruption of an ideal, but that’s deliberate. And change is here and it’s coming. Encourage everyone you know to get a halachic prenup!

dancingqueen

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 10:13 am

Orchid wrote:

Looking back at history, people just figured everything to do with pregnancy and fertility was dependent on the woman, not the man. eg henry the 8th not realizing that the gender of his babies was determined by him and disposing of all those wives.

amother

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 11:20 am

imorethanamother wrote:

Sadly not every rabbi agrees with it. Altho yes bh it's a step for so many!!!! And also it isnt fool-proof. It's a deterrent, but doesnt prevent men from abusing.

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 11:35 am

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

Not sure how normal it was. There are not too many examples of it (even in Tanach), and the examples I can think of (e.g. Rochel/Leah, Chana/Peninah, etc.) seem to have been pretty unhappy . . .

There are many more examples. Dovid had 8 wives. Shlomo had 700 wives and 300 mistresses. Rechavam , Lemech , Avshalom, Abraham just to name some. It was probably more prevalent among the wealthy because they had to support them all.