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Motek
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 Wed, Nov 03 2004, 1:33 pm
I'm happy to explain, to look things up or to ask when I don't know and then pass on what I learn to others.
I think you want to understand the sources I quoted, right (as opposed to understanding me  )? ...
| Quote: | | we have a person, who knows the basic halacha, does not work on observing it, but is perfecting himself in abstaning form pleasures. |
do you know of any such person? have you ever read of anybody who did that? seems an improbable scenario and not what I was talking about
very different is one who is lax or less than perfect in her observance
sorry, I don't understand the "monks" question. Maybe you can explain further.
What you wrote about the original chasidim gives only a partial picture of the rise of Chasidus. Yes, most of Eastern European Jewry was struggling, both materially and spiritually.
One reason why the teachings of Chasidus was revealed at that particular time, was to uplift the masses, as you described, but it would be a big mistake to think that the Chassidic Rebbes: 1) condoned ignorance 2) taught and uplifted only the unlearned.
The reason why the disciples of the Baal Shem Tov and the disciples of his disciples, and so on, traveled about was both to uplift the masses as well as to teach them, and to spread the revelations of Chassidus to the great scholars.
Nowadays, when - as you write - "ALL boys and girls have the ability to be Jewishly educated," we teach them to strive in all areas, I.e. in Torah study, mitzva observance, and hidur mitzva (beautifying the mitzvos with 'extras')
as for those things which will not lead to the prohibited but are used (as opposed to "can be used") to serve Hashem, that's wonderful! That's what G-d wants us to do with them!
All the so-called "neutral" things in life, should and must be used to enable us to fulfill our shlichus! Of course we don't do things to thwart our service of G-d!
| Quote: | | why devote yourself to them more than to trying to become better in observances that the Torah told us to keep? |
why make an either-or kind of choice? shouldn't we improve in all areas of service of G-d?
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ForeverYoung
Guest
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Wed, Nov 03 2004, 2:19 pm
You know, I see amother's point.
| Quote: | | the disciples of the Baal Shem Tov <...> traveled about was both to uplift the masses as well as to teach them, and to spread the revelations of Chassidus to the great scholars. |
Do you know of a great learned man who embraced hasidism?
(I'm not talking about those who became hasidim first & great second)
just wondering....
Neither do chasidishe scholars became litvish......
I think what amother ment is that chasidus was created to retain those who couldn't learn and teach them as much as possible, considering surcumstances, not to promote ignorance. Already learned people didn't need it at the time.
In our days, those born into chasish homes have the ability and the means to learn and observe much, much more and to continue the beautiful heritage of the European Jewry, that had saved so many souls. As the entire Judaism, chasidus has evolved to accomodate new times & better opportunities.
The real question here, I think, is: "What is more important to work on:
| Quote: | | devote yourself to them more than to trying to become better in observances that the Torah told us to keep? | ?"
which one gets more attention?
and the truth is, I do not think there is a uniform answer to this question. Each one of us, with their Rebbi, has to make thier own unuque plan on how to become closer to H'
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Motek
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Wed, Nov 03 2004, 5:04 pm
THOUSANDS of great learned men embraced hasidism over the centuries.
Men who were learned misnagdim (opponents to Chasidus) became Chasidim.
chasidishe scholars don't become misnagdim because once they have learned the deeper dimension of Torah, it would make no sense for them to drop it for less
chasidus was not "created"
chasidus is a part of Torah, a part of Torah that was revealed at a particular time in history
learned people absolutely needed it! they were sorely lacking without it, which is why they looked down on the ignorant masses and why their service of G-d was lackluster
as to your final question - again I ask: why do you make it an either/or choice?
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amother
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Wed, Nov 03 2004, 6:33 pm
I was about to answer and ask more questions.
However, after careful consideration, I desided to not to do this in order not to creat unnessesary conflicts on this wonderful forum.
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ForeverYoung
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Wed, Nov 03 2004, 6:39 pm
| Quote: | | as to your final question - again I ask: why do you make it an either/or choice? |
I never said that. I said 'balance'.
as far as the rest of your questions & arguments, I agree w/ amother, it's best to stop before somebody gets offended.
We can continue over pm, if you'd like.
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Ozmom
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Wed, Nov 03 2004, 6:47 pm
amother as long as you are respectfull there is nothing wrong with asking questions.
forever young:
| Quote: | | Do you know of a great learned man who embraced hasidism? |
to reiterate Moteks words "thousands"
oh where to start............
I'll get some names for you later, I'm in a bit of a rush right now
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Motek
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Wed, Nov 03 2004, 9:18 pm
ForeverYoung: you didn't say either/or - true. You asked, "The real question here, I think, is: "What is more important to work on"
and my response to that is - I don't see why this question is the "real question." We need to work on all areas of our service of G-d.
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ForeverYoung
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Wed, Nov 03 2004, 11:08 pm
Motek, here is the quote:
| Quote: | The real question here, I think, is: "What is more important to work on: | Quote: | | devote yourself to them more than to trying to become better in observances that the Torah told us to keep? |
which one gets more attention? |
it is the priority that is an individual desision of each and every one of us.
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amother
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Wed, Nov 03 2004, 11:14 pm
I have a few close chasidish friends.
We often discuss many things & argue about them.
However, as we do want to remain friends, this is where we stop and change the topic. I'm way too litvishe to understand certain things.
(I respect the chasidim, don't take me wrong here)
But I would appreciate names of well-known litvaks, Roshei Yeshivos, etc, who became chasidim.
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amother
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Wed, Nov 03 2004, 11:17 pm
| Quote: | | Not abandon them, no. But why devote yourself to them more than to trying to become better in observances that the Torah told us to keep? |
this question was also never answered. I would appreciate an explanation to this.
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Ozmom
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Wed, Nov 03 2004, 11:22 pm
amother sorry I didn't really understand what you were asking
could you rephrase please?
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amother
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Wed, Nov 03 2004, 11:32 pm
as somebody mentioned above, hasidim tend to consentrate on these things more than on basic halachos.
my question si : why?
Being litvishe, I'm trying to understand better. This is not ment as criticism.
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Ozmom
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Thu, Nov 04 2004, 7:14 am
amother, which things exactly, I'm sorry I got a bit dizzy on this thread everyvody seems to be talking about something els, or maybe its just me and the time of night.
about the names you asked for
Reb Meir Raphaels was a leader of a Jewish community of Vilna and started out as an antagonist of the Chasidis movement, he ended up joining the disciple of R' Shneur Zalman of Liadi - The first Chabad Rebbe - the Alter Rebbe and he became a prominent Chossid.
The Rashbatz started out as a 'Misnagid' and became a Chossid
R' Yitzchok Isac of Vitebsk the nephew of the Gaon R'Zemel was an oponent of the Alter Rebbe but later when the Alter Rebbe had a major debate in Minsk with a big Misnagid and the Alter Rebbe was victorious, R Yizchok Isac cleaved to the Alter Rebbe and became a big Chossid.
There are countless more but its late and I really have to go to sleep so later of after shabbos.
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gryp
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Thu, Nov 04 2004, 9:10 am
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a chassid is expected to be 100% when it comes to halacha.
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Motek
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Thu, Nov 04 2004, 9:46 am
| Quote: | | Not abandon them, no. But why devote yourself to them more than to trying to become better in observances that the Torah told us to keep? |
it's NOT about devoting yourself to them, MORE than trying to become better in the dos and don'ts
and again, "sanctifying yourself in that which is permissible to you" is one of the dos of the Torah, not an extra!
another mitzva of the Torah, one of the Six Constant Mitzvos, right up there with love and fear of G-d, is "you shall not stray after your hearts and eyes" which is said daily in the Shema
these two mitzvos are not "Chasidic extras" nor are they reserved for the pious
| Quote: | | Chasidim tend to consentrate on these things more than on basic halachos. |
Chasidim are known for their super-zealousness in halacha, for the definition of a chasid is one who goes "beyond the letter of the law". This was the case both in Europe and in any countries they later emigrated to. If you know people who identify as chasidim but are below-standard in their halachic observance, then they are identifying with a chasidic group without living up to the standards of their group.
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gryp
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Thu, Nov 04 2004, 9:55 am
| Motek wrote: |
it's NOT about devoting yourself to them, MORE than trying to become better in the dos and don'ts
If you know people who identify as chasidim but are below-standard in their halachic observance, then they are identifying with a chasidic group without living up to the standards of their group. |
agreed!
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amother
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Thu, Nov 04 2004, 11:58 am
O'k, as I said before, I'm not arguing anymore.
Oamom, thanks for the names. Even thoug I never heard of them before, I see your point.
One last thing: I've got plenty chasidishe & litvishe firends.
However, the most machmir one is - a litvishe family I know. There is a joke about them: if somebody found out about a chalacha that is not generally observed (like yoshon); or a 'proper' way to do something which everybody does in a more lenient way, probably this person heard it from that family.
It is a known fact that chasidim concentrate more of feelings and emotions. At least where I live.
There is a group of 'shtreimeled' chasidim that is extremely makpid on halacha, but I do not remember which one. My dh knows, but he isn't home now.
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gryp
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Thu, Nov 04 2004, 12:10 pm
| amother wrote: | | It is a known fact that chasidim concentrate more of feelings and emotions. At least where I live. |
not Chabad Chasidim. other chasidim focus on emotions. Chabad stands for chochma, bina, daas (wisdom, understanding, and application). This is our focus as opposed to the other chasidim who do focus on emotions (simcha,...)
I know there is some debate on yashan. every package I see on the stores have a yashan label on it, so chabad does keep it.
Last edited by gryp on Thu, Nov 04 2004, 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Motek
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Thu, Nov 04 2004, 12:44 pm
I don't think the questions you asked was arguing. I thought it was fine.
| Quote: | | It is a known fact that chasidim concentrate more of feelings and emotions |
not at the expense of halacha!
RG - yoshon is not something observed in Chabad, as far as I know, the pkgs. just come that way
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Tefila
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Thu, Nov 04 2004, 2:27 pm
RG | Quote: | | Chabad stands for chochma, bina, daas (knowledge, understanding, and application). This is our focus as opposed to the other chasidim who do focus on emotions (simcha,...) |
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