Is the Pursuit of Pleasure Encouraged by Torah?

gryp

Sun, Nov 21 2004, 10:02 am

ForeverYoung wrote:

yom tov, shabbos, hasuna - gashmius in ruchniuys.
a balance is the key

yom tov, shabbos, chasunah, leaves a lot of other days to do (what)
___?__with physical matters.
a balance- sometimes just plain gashmius, sometimes elevating gashmiyus with these three (shabbos, yt, chasuna)- is the key to what?

im really trying to understand (but something is wrong with my english).

ForeverYoung
Guest

Sun, Nov 21 2004, 2:33 pm

RG, are trying to understand my point or how it applies to you?

H' created this world for us & He wnts us to enjoy & appreciate it. We also have to serve Him.

My point is that we all have our own definition of pleasure -
I like reading, others like bowling, etc

However, the Torah also has a defenition of pleasure.

The goal is to have our definition to approach Torah's & become it.
Now, this takes effort & persistance.
Here you should talk to your Rav, Rebbi, or whoever it is.

Did I confuse you even more? Wink

gryp

Sun, Nov 21 2004, 2:54 pm

im trying to understand your point. honestly.

Hashem wants us to enjoy gashmiyus? He does? we are supposed to enjoy food on days other than shabbos/yt?

we also have to serve Him, meaning, gashmiyus is separate from avodas Hashem? is it like gashmiyus on one side, Hashem on the other?

what is the Torahs definition of pleasure?

how can our pleasures, ie. if someone likes to bowl, match up with Torah?
what does that mean practically?

sorry to pick on every word, im just really trying to be clear here.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Sun, Nov 21 2004, 3:05 pm

No prob.

If I had all the answers to all the questions, I would have been a saint by now.

Yes, Torah want's us to enjoy the beauty of the world, but not waist time on it - ie - a nice walk is nice, but don't use it as an exuse not to learn.

Food is delisios, but do not be a glutton, and so on.

Where is the fine line? It's a personal issue.

gryp

Sun, Nov 21 2004, 3:27 pm

we know food is delicious, were not going to say its not, just in order not to take pleasure from it, but there is a difference between knowing that the food tastes good and actually enjoying every bite.

so you are supposed to enjoy every bite, until the limit before you become a glutton? (I dont mean you, I mean a person...)

you are supposed to enjoy a nice walk in the beautiful world, and then go back to learning? what about bittul Torah? why not use a nice walk to learn, ie. "ma rabu maasecha Hashem," while walking for exercise to listen to a shiur tape,...
which does the Torah want you to do? is it all just different levels according to the person?

gryp

Wed, Nov 24 2004, 10:54 am

so I guess the answer to my question is:

some say: yes, Hashem made a beautiful world to take pleasure in, but once you go overboard with it, Hashem doesnt want that anymore. and there are many different levels of this, according to each person.

others (chassidus) say: inside each gashmiyus thing there is a spark of Hashem which is enabling it to exist. our goal is to elevate that spark towards kedusha and not towards tumah.

for those who go by the first one: my question is: is what chassidus says here, one of the "levels" of what a person is supposed to do with gashmiyus?

ForeverYoung
Guest

Thu, Nov 25 2004, 3:48 pm

sorry, RG.

here's how I see it: use it to get rid of the klipa, enjoy it. However, once you overdo it, we lower it into the tuma, which does not make H' happy, neither does it benefit us.

why is it a question to your mashpia?
well, lets say, a person can't live w/out a traif kandy called KKYB. So for him it would be a big maila to eat only 10 a day, as opposed to 20 a day.
Hoever, for you and me even 1 a week would be an aveira.
In these sort of issues we need to consult w/ somebody to make sure that we move in the proper direction.

Hope it's clearer now.

gryp

Sat, Nov 27 2004, 10:00 pm

so youre saying, in order to elevate it (food, for example), you enjoy it to till the point of overdoing it, and after that if you keep eating, youre lowering it?

in the example of a treife candy: is the example with a treife candy, specifically, as opposed to a kosher one? is the person who has to eat 20 a day elevating it by eating only 10 a day? do we elevate it by eating none of them? what about kosher candies? we elevate it by enjoying them because theyre kosher?

ForeverYoung
Guest

Sat, Nov 27 2004, 10:14 pm

something like that, yeh.

Quote:

in order to elevate it (food, for example), you enjoy it to till the point of overdoing it, and after that if you keep eating, youre lowering it?

you do not have to reach the 'over-do in 1 more bite' point, but yes, eat the apple and enjoy it & appreciate that H' created it for you.

Quote:

do we elevate it by eating none of them?

I don't think so, unless it's a struggle for us, we do not elevare anything.
A in - pork is disguasting to most of us, so we don't get a mitzva for NOT eating it. However, a baal teshuva who likes it gets a mitzva for restrain. Does the pork get elevated? I don't think so, may be a little bit b/c it gives a chance to a jew to do amitzva... (but don't ask me aobut this in detail Wink

)

may be my traif candy example wasn't so appropriate - in that case it's the person elevating himslef at the 'expence' of a traif candy (or lesser amount of it). /isn't it how klipos get corrected? you use negative for holy purposes - use the candy to approach H' closer/. But the general point is tru. Use it as it's ment to be used, enjoy it but do not become enslaved by it.

PS you really make me think hard!!! 8)

gryp

Sun, Nov 28 2004, 8:38 am

eating the apple and enjoying it is the same as appreciating that Hashem created it to eat?

something that is treife is different than food that you are allowed to eat, definitely. Chassidus teaches that something that is "assur," ie. treife, can never be elevated. some klipos can not get corrected, ever.

this also ties in to the question of: do we get a mitzvah for keeping a "mitzvas lo sa'seh"

ForeverYoung
Guest

Sun, Nov 28 2004, 4:36 pm

Quote:

eating the apple and enjoying it is the same as appreciating that Hashem created it to eat?

no, more like:
eating the apple and enjoying it AND appreciating that Hashem created it to eat is what I mean

Quote:

Chassidus teaches that something that is "assur," ie. treife, can never be elevated. some klipos can not get corrected, ever.

this also ties in to the question of: do we get a mitzvah for keeping a "mitzvas lo sa'seh"

I think that everything can be elevated - they say that the proverbal pig will become kosher.

Yes, we do get a mitzva if it's a struggle for us to refrain from whatever it is.

gryp

Tue, Nov 30 2004, 10:18 am

we know there are two categories of things in this world: assur and mutar, not allowed to do, and permitted to do.
Chassidus tells us there are two types of klipah as well- one for assur and one for mutar. the word "Assur" means "tied down," and whatever is assur is tied down and that klipah can never be elevated by us.
the word mutar is the opposite, (what is the opposite of "tied down"? "untied" maybe) and is from the klipah that can be elevated by us.

so to talk about eating an apple, and to talk about treife are very different.

Motek

Wed, Dec 01 2004, 8:52 am

Rivka wrote:

... if we aren't meant to enjoy pleasures why are we having hot baths/showers when a cold one will do?
We have to enjoy what we are doing, if we don't enjoy it why would we enjoy keeping stuff? We are all human and if we don't enjoy what we are doing we just won't do it ...

I posted this in a different thread, but it really belongs here.

There are two ways of looking at our role as Jews. One way is,
Hashem created us as Jews and gave us 613 mitzvos. He is our boss, and we do this work for him, and then after 120 years, we get paid for the work we did. The more mitzvos we do, the bigger the reward. We are advised to grab as many mitzvos as we can in order to gain a greater share in the World to Come. It's an Employer, employee relationship.

Another way of looking at it is, as the Zohar says, "Yisrael, the Torah, and G-d are one." I am inseparably linked with Hashem and His Torah. Anything I do, every thought, word, and action, either draws me closer to Hashem, or distances me from Him. Hashem and I are in an intense relationship that goes beyond even that of the lovers in Song of Songs. Every mitzva I do binds me to Hashem, and as Dovid wrote in Tehillim, "My soul thirsts for You, my flesh pines for You."

In the Employer/employee model, there's definitely room for fun and time off. After all, when you work for a boss, he gives you coffee breaks and vacation. He doesn't expect you to work for him 24/7.

In the Hashem-and-Jew-as-one model, we are consumed by the relationship 24/7. Do madly in love lovers want time off? Do they yearn for a break from their relationship? Of course not!

So if the 24/7 model is seen as harsh, impossible, unreasonable, ridiculous, etc. it's because we haven't begun to appreciate what our connection to Hashem is all about. It is in order to gain this appreciation, that we need to learn Chassidus.

Motek

Wed, Dec 01 2004, 8:56 am

Quote:

they say that the proverbal pig will become kosher.

the Midrash state: "Why is the pig called 'chazir'? For in the future, it will be returned ('lehachazir') to us"

for an explanation as to why this is so, see:

http://www.moshiach.com/explor.....;c=14

a pig is in a different category

as RG wrote, that which is asur-forbidden, cannot be elevated

gryp

Tue, Dec 21 2004, 9:41 am

to add to it from today's Tanya:

the klipah that we can not elevate nowadays will be elevated when Moshiach comes like it says "vianochi aavir...." "and I will remove the impurity from the land"
then finally, those sparks of holiness that were trapped in these assur things will be elevated.

there IS one way to elevate deeds a person did that were assur. and that is by doing a special kind of Tshuva (repentance/ return) from the depths of the heart with great great love for Hashem. this level of love is called "ahava raba."

this level of tshuva with ahava raba is when the baal teshuva has a great thirst for Hashem as if he is in a desert looking for water. he thirsts for Hashem more than a tzaddik, which is why it says: "in a place where baalei tshuva stand, a tzaddik can not stand"

when this level of tshuva is accomplished, all of his sins turn into a zchus for him, and thus are elevated. they turn into good because in the end they actually brought him closer.