This should make everyone stop and think

amother

Azure

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 1:45 pm

So should this:

Rabbi's Blog

Saturday, April 4, 2020
Long-Overdue Introspection
This article is dedicated in loving memory of my dear brother-in-law,
Rabbi Shalom a"h ben Shmuel halevi Gurewicz,
who passed away today, Shabbos Parshas Tzav, 10 Nisan 5780

Trigger warning:
For the past few weeks, I have hesitated to share these thoughts. I feared sounding insensitive to the suffering of our community at this time. However, I feel the sense of urgency to share this vital message now to prevent more loss of life. Too much is at stake. Unfortunately, my message may distress certain well-meaning individuals in the Jewish community who hold "public health policy" to a standard of infallibility. All who are open to objective dialogue are encouraged to read on. Please read until the end before reaching conclusions. This is not about gloom and doom, but shares a message of hope, positivity, and constructive solutions. Also, my intent is not to point the finger at any one individual, but to a communal lapse for which we are all equally responsible.

With a broken heart I write these words.
Grieving for those who perished.
Praying for those who are stricken.
Distraught over the trauma and uncertainty.
Judaism behooves us to dig deeper.
This virus is no coincidence.
Cataclysmic collective suffering reveals a dire need for collective introspection.[1]
It's a spiritual game-changer.
How might we mend our ways and bring healing to our ailing people?

It's not just about those who are ailing. It's all of us.
Each of us sits isolated in our homes like lepers, excommunicated, banned from shul or any communal prayer. Schools and yeshivos are shut down. The Rebbe's own shul and beis midrash, "770," is chained up and empty.

Instead of lamenting our plight, it's time to be proactive. "Let us search and examine our ways, and let us return to G-d. [2]

There is no effect without a cause.
This novel virus and the upheaval that has ensued are truly unprecedented.
It follows that something unprecedented occurred that precipitated such a novel crisis.

What could it be?

Evil gossip (lashon hara) has been around since time immemorial. Other sins too. If anything, the general trajectory of worldwide Jewish observance has been a positive one. Has any violation of Torah occurred in the recent past that can be said to be truly unprecedented?

Our sages taught:

"If a person sees that suffering has befallen him, he should examine his actions... If he examined and found no (transgression for which that suffering is appropriate -- Rashi), he may attribute his suffering to dereliction in the study of Torah."[3]

So dereliction of Torah study is indeed presumed to be the culprit. But what type of extraordinary bitul Torah could have possibly resulted in such an extraordinary shutdown of society?

We need not look too far.

Alas, this past year has witnessed a grave preponderance of communal Bitul Torah that was truly unparalleled in the annals of Jewish history. Bitul Torah of the very worst degree.

One year ago, in the winter of 2019, thousands of Jewish children were summarily banned from school during a measles outbreak. The reason cited was their lack of immunity to the measles virus. Public health policy deemed these otherwise healthy children a risk to others, since they can become asymptomatic carries (I.e. contagious before showing symptoms). Of course, this can occur in any child, but the unvaccinated are presumed to have a higher risk of contracting the virus than their vaccinated peers.

Sadly, a great many Jewish schools went over and beyond state requirement and expelled unvaccinated students even when there was no outbreak in their local zip code. In Crown Heights, the Chidon banned children from attending an educational event for which they had prepared for months, even though the Department of Health had not required such action. Even worse, some of these children were en route from overseas when the Chidon organizers notified parents. When the children entered the event during davening, they were publicly humiliated and physically ousted from shul. No one protested this egregious act of public humiliation.

Furthermore, even after the measles outbreak concluded, many of these children were still not permitted back to school. Sadly, the rabbinic leadership of New York and elsewhere regarded these families as outliers deserving of marginalization, scorn and derision. Their children were seen as public dangers unworthy of attending school, camp, or any other public event. Numerous synagogues adopted abusive policies banning unvaccinated families from attending shul. Some communities even banned unvaccinated women from using the mikva!

Then, on the thirteenth of June (6-13, ironically), the NY State legislature passed a draconian law eliminating religious exemption to mandatory vaccine schedule, effectively banning ten thousand Jewish children from ever attending school again in NY. This drastic move was met with zero resistance on part of the Jewish community. Nary a protest was heard. In fact, numerous prominent rabbis praised the bill and had originally petitioned their state assembly to pass it!

The problem here is obvious. Halacha does not permit excluding a healthy child from school. The leading halachic authorities on medical matters in our times[4] ruled conclusively that healthy unvaccinated children may be excluded from school ONLY during an actual outbreak of a deadly disease. The 2019 measles outbreak was declared over in NY State this past September.

So by what right were these children still banned from school in the fall of 2019 and beyond?

Can it be that this lapse of rabbinic leadership in 2019 laid the groundwork for the feared virus that has been aptly dubbed "COVID-19," I.e. the "Corona Virus Disease of 2019?"

Moreover, children were barred from school even if they indeed had immunity to measles, or were vaccinated for it, but were simply missing the mandatory hepatitis-B vaccine, which is an STD, clearly posing no risk for children in orthodox Jewish day schools and yeshivos.

Even those poskim who permitted schools to ban unvaccinated children even when there is no outbreak did so ONLY provided that the community sets up new school(s) to accommodate ALL children, including the unvaccinated [5].

Alas, no such schools were ever set up anywhere in NY State. Instead, some parents capitulated and vaccinated under duress, some parents signed their children up for online instruction, while other children just stayed home to roam the streets.

This dire situation was truly unacceptable. It was already foreseen by our sages nearly two-thousand years ago.

Shortly before the destruction of the Second Temple, in the days of Yehoshua ben Gamla[6], our sages enacted a communal obligation on every single Jewish community throughout the world to hire Torah teachers for all children of the city[7]. Any city that did not comply and did not have school-teachers for all its children was to be duly excommunicated until it would comply with our sages’ ordinance[8] since the world only exists in the merit of the breath of the mouths of Jewish school children, a breath that has no sin, etc.[9]

After learning of this unjust school policy and unjust legislative act that cemented it into law, I spent months sending letters to rabbis of NY demanding that they protest this dire lapse in Torah education. I published an op-ed in the Jewish Press stating that we are all guilty of cherem until we get these children back into school.

All my pleas fell on deaf ears. The state of CA passed a similarly draconian law banning unvaccinated children, and several other states are currently trying to follow suit. These laws have been largely met with silence on part of the Jewish community.

This betrayal of Jewish children is shockingly novel and unprecedented.

Can it be that by banning thousands of healthy Jewish children from school, we have rendered our communities guilty of cherem for being in violation of our sages' communal obligation? And consequently, the social isolation imposed in response to this novel corona virus is a communal excommunication of sorts?[10]

Even worse, can it be that by unjustly banning Jewish children from joining their peers in Torah study, we have shaken the very foundations of the entire world? And consequently, the world economy is in collapse and uncertainty has left billions of the world's inhabitants distraught and panic-stricken?

Can it be that the elimination of the vital merit upon which the world exists, I.e. the breath from the mouths of Jewish school children, has left us all vulnerable to a disease which threatens to take away our breath?

We've deprived the world of the precious breaths upon which it owes its existence and now people cannot breathe?

Is it just coincidence that the nation's hardest-hit hotspot of corona virus cases is the very state in which 10,000 Jewish children were unjustly banned from learning Torah?[11]

Please don't counter that these children were still able to learn Torah from home or elsewhere. Our Sages use the phrase tinokos shel beis rabban -- children of their teacher's house. Learning at home or online is not called beis rabban.[12]

There is yet another Talmudic clue into the eerie chain of events.

Our Sages taught: "Whoever neglects the Torah in wealth will ultimately neglect it in poverty[13]... and if you neglect the Torah, there will be many more causes for neglect before you."[14]

This time last year, we were in a position of 'wealth.' There was no state law unjustly banning children from school. Moreover, we had a relatively benign outbreak of a once-commonplace childhood illness that sickened over 1,200 people in the US, all of whom recovered with no mortality. Yet we faltered, in panic and dread, and precipitously expelled thousands of healthy children from school. We never corrected this breach, even after the so-called outbreak was over. So now we find ourselves in a position of 'poverty.' A real outbreak has come our way with dozens of thousands sick and thousands dead. All of our schools are shut down with no plans of reopening.

Last year, we neglected the Torah study of ten-thousand children. Now we are faced with a reality of bitul Torah (albeit justified) of hundreds of thousands of children.

Where do we go from here? How shall we proceed?

I have received numerous notices about Sifrei Torah being written, tehillim groups, Moshiach and Geulah study groups, lashon horah groups, etc., all in the hope of averting this dreadful decree. This is all wonderful, but in my humble opinion, it ignores the elephant in the room. How can we correct the breach in the Torah study of tinokos shel beis rabban that we inflicted upon ourselves?

Don't despair. There is hope. Our Sages have an answer for this too. The previous teaching in Avos addresses it directly:

"Whoever fulfills the Torah in poverty will ultimately fulfill it in wealth."[13]

Now is the time to rededicate our efforts to fulfill the Torah, even in our present state of poverty. How can we endeavor to uphold Torah study of all Jewish children even in our present state of social isolation?

Here some vital steps that can be implemented right away:

1. Rabbis of NY (and elsewhere) should unanimously declare that every Jewish child deserves an uncompromising Jewish education, irrespective of state vaccine-schedule compliance, finances, or any other halachically-unjust reason to prevent a child from attending Talmud Torah.

2. Rabbis and headmasters should make public apologies to all children and families whom they hurt with their words and actions. Especially children who suffered humiliation, scorn, and isolation.

3. All children in the community should be invited to participate in any zoom classes that schools are currently offering. They should all be furnished with computers, accoutrements, and online resources that were afforded to their peers.

4. All rabbis shall call their legislators and vehemently protest the state policy that bans unvaccinated children from school in profound violation of our religion. Furthermore, they shall call upon all adherents and community members to likewise voice their complaints to the legislature. It is obvious that if the Jewish constituency were solidly opposed to the law, it would be repealed at once.[15]

5. Community members shall resolve at once that when Hashem has mercy on us and ends this plague, they will not rest until every single child is back in school, or at least that temporary learning programs be put in place for these children who have been wrongly marginalized, until the law is repealed. These programs shall be supported by the entire community, as required by the original rabbinic decree for the past two millennia.[6]

6. The entire Jewish community worldwide resolve to never disparage or isolate a family because of their medical choices ever again.

7. We shall all declare once and for all that we are one inseparable people, mutually responsible for one another. Most importantly, we share responsibility for all Jewish children everywhere, and especially those in our own communities.

Last year, during the measles outbreak, no one called for tehillim or prayer groups. Instead of turning to the Healer of all flesh, Hashem, everyone placed their trust in "Public Health Policy" and its vaccine. Now, covid-19 leaves us with no doubt Whom to turn to.

With prayerful wishes for healing and Redemption now,
Rabbi Michoel Green

Notes:

[1] Rambam, Laws of Fasts 1:2-3.
[2] Eicha 3:40 נַחְפְּשָׂה דְרָכֵינוּ וְנַחְקֹרָה וְנָשׁוּבָה עַד ה'
[3] Berachos 5a.
[4] Rabbi Dr Avraham Steinberg, leading neurologist and ethicist of Shaarei Tzedek Hospital, recently sent me two letters confirming his ruling and rabbinic consensus on this matter. Letter available upon request. He also stated clearly that orthodox Jewish children should NOT be required to get the hep-B and HPV vaccines since they are STDs and pose no risk for children.
[5] Rabbi Yitzchak Breitowitz, another posek on medical matters, expressed this view to me via email. Furthermore, he agreed that children may NOT be excluded from school just for not being vaccinated for hep-B, HPV, and chicken pox.
[6] Bava Basra 21a. Hilchos Talmud Torah by the Alter Rebbe, 1:3.
[7] The Alter Rebbe’s wording: “בעד כל תינוקות שבעיר”.
[8] It should be noted that the Rambam (Hilchos Talmud Torah 2:1) rules that if the city still refuses to hire teachers for all its children, even after being excommunicated, then the city should be destroyed! Jewish people must move away from such a community, which is to be dismantled and abandoned since it would not provide teachers for its children!
[9] Shabbos 119b. Alter Rebbe’s Hilchos Talmud Torah Ibid. See sources cited in the footnotes there.
[10] The "six-foot rule" is eerily reminiscent of nidui, ostracization (I.e. a lighter form of excommunication than cherem). No one may sit within four cubits of a menudeh (a person who has been ostracized) except members of his household. Four cubits is approximately six feet. [Yoreh Deah 334:2]
[11] "Corona" means crown. Tragically, Crown Heights, a community that banned at least 500 children from school this past year happens to be one of the hardest-hit neighborhoods in New York and perhaps in the entire nation. Metaphorically, the Torah learning of children is the crown of our people. Have we erred catastrophically by debasing our crown thereby inflicting a corona disease upon our people? On a positive note, this plague seems to only endanger adults. Children, the most precious members of our community who were innocent all along, seem to be spared from the risks of this disease.
Interestingly, a common symptom that Crown Heights residents experienced once infected with this corona virus is loss of taste. Can it be that we have lost our taam (I.e. sense and appreciation) for Torah education, so we became vulnerable to a disease that deprives its victim of the sense of taste?
[12] It should be pointed out that when these 10,000 children were banned from school, no one came to their aid to provide resources for them to continue their studies online as was done for all the children in school who were recently sent home as a result of the current corona virus. No one provided them with laptops and zoom technology to enable them to join their class. No one seemed to care that these hapless children were forced out of school with no alternatives.
[13] Avot 4:9.
[14] Ibid 10.
[15] It only passed narrowly by a few votes.
Rabbi Green at 11:07 PM
16 comments:

AnonymousApril 5, 2020 at 12:53 AM
Rabbi Green,
Thank you for this courageous article.
I have been thinking along these same lines since this current 'pandemic' started rearing its ugly head. I feel you have voiced a very important perspective that unfortunately most leaders
in our community will never have the humility or courage to voice. Those among us that have gone through the hell that we have experienced with the blatant targeting and discrimination against our children this past year applaud your wisdom, courage, and outspokenness. You should be Blessed to continue to voice your thoughts, and to be an advocate for all the tinokos shel Bes Raban that need advocates to ensure they have equal rights and are not unjustifably attacked.
-Eli from Brooklyn

Reply

AnonymousApril 5, 2020 at 1:22 AM
Kol hakavod. The pain of just one family I know who was torn apart and humiliated publicly, notices sent out naming and shaming them, forcing them to leave town... was enough to bring this plague.
May Hashem have mercy.

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DanielApril 5, 2020 at 3:28 AM
https://youtu.be/nT6I864vwbE
No evidence that vaccination work

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AnonymousApril 5, 2020 at 3:57 AM
This letter is a most shocking yet true assessment of what our present situation is all about.
The Bais hamikdash was destroyed because the rabbanim didn’t prevent the abuse to ONE person who was shamefully thrown out of a gathering.
Multiply that by 10,000 plus children and families and then calculate the middah knegged middah.

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AnonymousApril 5, 2020 at 5:19 AM
IMHO, that's a VERY big "If" seeing as though it really could be any number of deficiencies.

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Rabbi HenryApril 5, 2020 at 8:23 AM
Rabbi Green your analysis of the matter is spot on. Thank you for you dicernment and wisdom in this matter. Shalom uvracha Rabbi Henry.

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Rabbi HenryApril 5, 2020 at 8:25 AM
Rabbi Green your wisdom and discernment in this matter are spot on. Thank you for speaking out. Shalom uvracha Rabbi Henry.

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UnknownApril 5, 2020 at 1:05 PM
Thank you!!!! I tried to reach out to figures in the public to address this to the principals and administrators, not to rile up the public but I don't know if it went anywhere. I think this letter must be sent to every school!! I wonder if Hashem is telling us that "you are trying to control disease and therefore sending children out of school that they can't learn Torah when this approach is not oisgeholten, let's see who controls disease". Hashem should have rachmonis on klal yisroel and bring back shalom and ahavas yisroel. May everyone ask mechila and be accepted back into school. May all cholim have a refuah sheleima! May we be zoche to Moshiach Today!!

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UnknownApril 5, 2020 at 1:06 PM
sorry, please put me in as anonymous!!!

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AnonymousApril 5, 2020 at 1:26 PM
please send to all principals, administrators, Rabbonim, Agudah...

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AnonymousApril 5, 2020 at 4:01 PM
The brainwashing that is done on the nation has not spared the Jewish community in vaccines. When I looked into it and decided not to vaccinate it was a swim against the current...when I had to vaccinate again I only did with bitachon that Hashem is in charge and we are Jews so abouve nature (so we will be protected by the evils of the vaccines. Thank you for speaking out against the storm!

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AnonymousApril 5, 2020 at 9:16 PM
Kol Hakavod!!!!

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AnonymousApril 5, 2020 at 11:38 PM
You are a very wise man.

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AnonymousApril 6, 2020 at 1:24 AM
Thank you so much for this article.

If the episode of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza caused the destruction of the Temple, how many Kamtza nd Bar Kamtza episodes took place in 2019?

If Bittul Tinnokos Shel Bais Rabban caused the destruction of Jerusalem, it can also Rachmana Litzlan cause shutting of all our Mikdash Mea'ts and Torah institutions!

The awesome Mida K'neged Mida evident in how the punishment came specifically through a disease, (and not nuclear fallout or hurricane or earthquake) and all people find themselves socially distanced in Cherem is a simple and clear pointer to the root cause of the Corona Catastrophe.

The Gemara says that קשה היא הליצנות שתחלתו יסורין וסופו כליה , when sane and intelligent people are ignored and dismissed without any reason, and are pushed out of society, thar is through the agent of letzanus, calling them crazy and refusing to discuss the issues. The only language a Letz understands is Yissurin, logic dosnt tak to him. and sometimes there is really no hope and they can laugh of Yissurin too, וסופו כליה !Hashem Yerachem.

Reply

amother

Copper

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 1:45 pm

But why aren’t the rabbonim working on making sure every child gets into a school. Why don’t they not let high school girls get answers before every girl got into one school? Why are they so focused on extravagant weddings that don’t affect them but not worried about every child having a place.

Do you really think a mothers tears didn’t reach shamayin? Maybe schools were shut down because Hashem said I had enough of so many tears and so many kids going off the derech because schools didn’t accept them because their father wears a blue shirt.

amother

Hotpink

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 1:47 pm

Btw, I think that we should be like China of the recent past and only allowed 1 child /family. I suffer from SIF and I may be jealous of people's large families. Maybe we should make a takana that people can't be rich with children.

amother

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 1:53 pm

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

Maybe those who send to boarding schools. Other mothers already have their children at home before and after school.

Not the same as having them all day, every day.

amother

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 1:58 pm

amother [ Green ] wrote:

Granted, it's indisputably true that hashem shut it down.

He's claiming to know that the REASON hashem shut everything down was in part because hashem is angry at wealthy people -who do indescribable chessed with their money- for using their money for things like lavish weddings and wildly expensive pesach programs. This is a fact? He (or anybody else) knows why hashem brought this gezaira? I'd say hashem is happier now with wealthy people that at any time in history. Yes, they make 100k wedding, but they also support tens of thousands of kollel younerleit. They are the ones we turn to when a yeshiva needs a large sum to meet payroll and for dozens of other causes. You think hashem overall is angry at the wealthy?

Again, you’re intentionally putting your own conclusions and spin on what he said, deciding that you know that he meant something other than what he said. Please show us where he ever said Hashem is mad at the wealthy? Do you think only wealthy people go away for Pesach, spend more than they have and go into debt just to make showy weddings, etc? Wrong.
And by the way, if a thief steals money and then donates some to charity, is he not deserving of punishment of condemnation for his thievery, just because he “also” gives charity?

amother

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 2:00 pm

amother [ Puce ] wrote:

The weddings taking place now are a simcha with lots of pain. Grandparents cannot be present, people are unable to dance together, etc. Is this the ideal? Can we call it starting off on the right foot? It's what Hashem wants right now. When this is over, people will be able to invite every relative and friend, and we will rejoice together,bezH. I don't see how anyone can say this is beautiful when people are in so much pain.

Then you haven’t seen the weddings and how much simcha and beauty there was. They (unlike you) didn’t focus on what was missing, they focused on what they had: a simcha that was hartzidig, a coming together of a choose and kallah building a new life together, instead of alone.

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

Who says the punishment has to be similar to the crime?

As one who was on the receiving end (and still is) of endless vicious motzi shem ra, all I see is that it came due to people believing and spreading motzi shem ra. I guess everyone sees what they want to see.. of course, we should look inside and fix ourselves before pointing fingers to others, but nature takes it's course in a different way.

Really? Ever hear of midda Kineged midda?

amother

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 2:02 pm

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

Really? Ever hear of midda Kineged midda?

imasoftov

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 2:03 pm

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

Saturday, April 4, 2020
Long-Overdue Introspection

We discussed this idea not long ago - Is this the message we're supposed to get?. But please, everyone, tell us your same thoughts as before.

amother

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 2:06 pm

thanks wrote:

You really proved my point. Why are people in pain when they see rich people making nice simchas? I've been to many, and I don't even notice or care where the flowers are from or who the band is. Why can't people fargin the rich to do what they can afford? If that causes people pain, it's their issue. And if it's as common as you make it sound, maybe that's what we should be working on.

So you think poor people who see those weddings arent feeling pain not knowing where money for their next meal or piece of clothing, or rent payment will come from while not understanding how rich people could be spending $100k on a five hour event rather than donating some to the poor? How about the jealousy and the need to keep up with the Friedman’s that some will feel, and possibly cause an ayin hara? That you see nothing wrong with the level of extravagance, the need for sushi bars, exotic meats, etc., constantly upping the ante...well....

honey36 wrote:

In that case, don't you think it would be better for the rabbanim to help ppl work on their jealousy rather than try and change what rich people do? Plus that's one of the 10 commandments. I don't think there's a specific mitzvah to make a less extravagant wedding. Especially if you also give loads of money to tzedakah already.

So u think it’s easier to help people change their midda of jealousy than to ask people to limit the spending on extravagant weddings? Are u aware it says it can take a person alifetime to change one midda?

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

My 10 year old son actually told me that he's relieved that there's no more going to cheder because he hates his rebbe. In fact, he's proud of the fact that his prayers were answered. He kept on davening to Hashem that He should somehow make something happen, nothing crazy, so that he wouldn't have to go to cheder.
For all of you wondering where I was the entire time: I was actually trying to work on the situation. It's a little difficult when you don't know the full extent and all important people involved extols the virtues of a rebbe and we will talk to him blah blah blah.

And of course you’re sure that your 10 year old tzaddikel is 100% right that he should hate his rebbe, and the rebbe is of course 100% wrong and a rasha, just because your 10 yr old says so. Uh huh.

amother

Green

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 2:28 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Really? Ever hear of midda Kineged midda?

I think you're over simplifying the ways of hashem and how he runs the world. Almost everything that happens does not make sense to us and can't be explained.

On one hand we say hashem didn't like the big weddings so he stopped weddings.
Hashem didn't like our behavior in shul so he kicked us out of shul.

Does this make sense to us?

Maybe a little. I mean is our behavior in shul now any different than 5 years ago? Are our weddings different now than 5 years ago?

And even if the answer is yes, how do you explain whose family is losing loved ones and whose family is spared?
Which family loses parnassah and which families are spared?

There's only a very small percentage where we actually see middah kneged midah. In this world the righteous often suffer while the wicked thrive.

amother

Puce

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 2:56 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Yes, I saw the beauty in it, but I did not overlook other people's pain. Imagine not being able to be at the wedding of a grandchild! Imagine marrying off a child, and your parents and siblings cannot be there with you to share in the joy! Can you find it in you to empathize for these people? Glorifying these weddings and saying this is how it should be is overlooking other people's pain.

I personally agree that small weddings are beautiful, even very small weddings. But every time I see a video of a wedding, I rejoice for the chosson and kallah, but I realize there is much more than what is being shown on social media.

Think about the people planning weddings now and the stress they are going through. Engagements should be joyous, and they are fraught with stress (and not the lack of money type of stress). Let's make sure we sympathize and feel the pain of others.

imasinger

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 3:01 pm

Methinks it's easier to point fingers outwards than inwards.

honey36

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 3:03 pm

Quote:

I don't think we need to perfect the middah of jealousy, I just think the Rabbanim can help us work on it. Instead of giving takanos about wedding, give shiurim and gatherings on emunah and bitachon, with ideas like "life is not a race" "everyone is given what they need to accomplish their own mission" etc. I think if klal yisroel was stronger is these much more fundamental areas we wouldn't have a problem with the weddings etc.

I know Rabbanim already do this as well, and ppl don't listen or don't have time etc. But again, I don't think the solution to that is the takanos on weddings. If a person comes crying to a rav their jealous of their friend we don't have to now perfect their middah of jealous, just give them chizzuk as decribed above.

thanks

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 3:04 pm

Amother [OP] wrote:

Poor people are in pain, for sure. They are in pain when they pass a restaurant, a supermarket, a clothing store, privately owned homes, and all the time. Financial stress of poor people is constant. It affects their health - mental and physical. It's heartbreaking, and has very little to do with fancy weddings.
The jealousy with keeping up with the Friedmans is what needs to be addressed. It's a struggle most of us deal with on our own level. Even the Friedmans struggle with keeping up with the Cohens. We really must work on ourselves instead of criticizing the Friedmans and Cohens.

honey36

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 3:09 pm

Also another thought you can share with jealous ppl that's a "quick fix" is you never know what's rlly happening is someone's life. Rich ppl have their own set of challenges. maybe someone who just made an extravagant wedding also has a family member with a terminal illness? Sure you still want to be them?

amother

Turquoise

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 3:21 pm

amother [ Puce ] wrote:

It goes both ways. If the pain of people planning weddings now amidst the pandemic is valid, why isn't the pain of poor people or middle class people feeling looked down by others for a simple, plain wedding valid?
Additionally why are people so focused on the pain of rich people?
Isn't there enough empathy to go around? There are a variety of stuggles. Isn't there a rashi that says Yaakov Avinu was considered as having been killed by Eisav's son after he was robbed of all his possessions because a poor person is like a meis?
Why do people lash out at the struggles of a poor person and are suddenly all sympathy at the struggles of a rich person? Why aren't both valid?

amother

Scarlet

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 3:39 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

And who do you think funds Tomchei Shabbos and kupas YT
The guy with the flowers
If there are no gvirim and no fancy affairs
The poor family will be much worse off

Why does the guy who funds these tzedakas have to make fancy affairs? I know rich people who live simply, because they understand the concept of modesty.

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 3:44 pm

I agree they are both valid, no one should try to judge as to who has it better or worse.

But I do want to point out that after Eisav's son took all of Yaakov Avinu's possessions, he was left without anything. Whereas usually the people out there making chasuna just have to do it simpler and it can still look nice and balabatish.

So no, these people are not considered a meis like Yaakov was.

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 3:55 pm

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

Why does the guy who funds these tzedakas have to make fancy affairs? I know rich people who live simply, because they understand the concept of modesty.

And why shouldn't they make fancy weddings if they have the money? BH they were blessed in this way. We have to look for the blessing in our own life so that the jealousy doesn't get to us.

They have the money and you have the brains. Another person has the looks and the other has great shalom bayis. Some have what looks to outsiders as everything and others look like they weren't zoicha to anything at all.

We will never know.

Btw we see this showing off in all areas of life. Some pretty people will not show off and others will. Some brainy people will always talk in a way that will make others feel stupid and others will pretend they're interested in the stupid remarks.

amother

Turquoise

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 3:56 pm

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

At a siblings wedding (Yes nice but no, not balabatish) I over heard some deprecating comments from some guests about the simplicity.
Thank G-d my parents didn't hear, but sorry, the possible pain and humIliation is real.
And embarrassing someone is also considered like shedding blood.
Maybe these are things that should be focused on, rather than preaching to poor people about not being jealous. There's jealousy and there's the desire not to stand out and be humiliated.