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How much does Israel figure into your vote?
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Poll

How much does Israel figure into your vote?
Totally, I’d never vote for someone who wasn’t very pro-israel
 76%  [ 29 ]
Somewhat, I’m not that concerned about Israel
 7%  [ 3 ]
Not at all, only what happens in America matters to me
 7%  [ 3 ]
If it’s between Trump and even an anti-Israel candidate, belonging to a party with anti semites, I choose the latter
 7%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 38


Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jul 02 2020, 12:11 pm
If you have a choice between a proven oheiv Yisroel, who has made unprecedented gestures towards Israel, and given unprecedented support, vs. someone who touts the “Palestinian” cause ie. pressuring Israel to give up more land, despite security risks (and despite how many efforts and deals were made, only to be met each time with Pali terror), and whose party contains anti semites who promote aid cuts to Israel, BDS, and pressure to give in to every Pali demand, how much does the above fit into your vote?
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lavenderchimes




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jul 02 2020, 12:40 pm
I was going to answer your question theoretically, as you posed it. Then I saw that you mentioned Trump in your poll ... so I'll do both. (I didn't pick a poll option, because none of them fit me, because you presented the options in a very biased manner.)

Theoretically: if both candidates are otherwise equally good for the US, I would absolutely vote pro-Israel. But I am not a one-issue voter: Israel is important to me, but it is not The Only Important Thing, or The Most Important Thing.

In the 2020 election: In my opinion, the pro-Israel candidate (Trump) is a terrible person and a terrible president who has stirred up a lot of racism and anti-semitism, hate and divisiveness, so I won't vote for him. The few things he has done for Israel do not outweigh all the bad things he has done for the US and around the world. (As a side note, all the neo-Nazi's support Trump, and there are plenty of anti-semites on both sides, but that doesn't really factor into my decisions - I don't care who is else is voting for who - I just care about the candidate.)

If I lived in Israel, I would obviously be voting pro-Israel, because that would be my country. But I don't live in Israel, so I am not going to throw my own country under a bus for Israel. I believe that I have a duty to vote for the good of the country that I am in, and also to take into account the good of Israel. I wish the Democrats were more pro-Israel, but ... they aren't. I wish many things were different about the Democratic platform, but I still generally agree with them more than I do with Trump. A LOT more.
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tp3




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jul 02 2020, 12:47 pm
100% into my vote.
I would never throw fellow Jews under the bus with my vote.
I don't love Trump but I will vote for him any day over someone who is so left-wing, he's fallen off my number line.
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Iymnok




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jul 02 2020, 12:59 pm
If America is a strong country and her leaders toil for the best of her people and possess a fair amount of scruples then there is a chance they may be able to recognize and support the truth.
Sadly such a candidate hasn’t been seen in a while. I’ll vote for the one who will mess up the country the least.
It’s a hard choice.
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jul 02 2020, 1:02 pm
lavenderchimes wrote:


If I lived in Israel, I would obviously be voting pro-Israel, because that would be my country. But I don't live in Israel, so I am not going to throw my own country under a bus for Israel. I believe that I have a duty to vote for the good of the country that I I still generally agree with them more than I do with Trump. A LOT more.


Even all this?

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora.....11310

https://thehill.com/policy/int.....raeli

https://www.wsj.com/articles/d.....15148

https://www.aljazeera.com/news......html

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora.....13308
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Fox




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jul 02 2020, 1:24 pm
While the interests of the U.S. and Israel don't necessarily align perfectly all the time, they are frequently close.

Support for Israel, at least at the current time, is more of a bellwether as far as I'm concerned. Candidates who equivocate on support for Israel may or may not be correct in terms of whatever the immediate issue is, but they are almost always responding to forces that are ultimately anti-Jewish.
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shaqued_almond




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jul 02 2020, 1:46 pm
I need to preface this : I am not happy with Trump's personality or character, I believe he's deeply flawed, however to his credit he has never proclaimed to be a moral individual. His international policies were quite reserved and I believe his reasoning for strengthening Israel is in order to further distance the US from intervening in the middle east. There's a lot more to say on his international politics but I'm just going to keep it to Israel. As an American I support Israel because it's the only functional democracy in the middle east. As a jew I support my brothers and sisters in Israel . Israel is our home and a haven from antisemitism so how can I not care to protect it?

If the democrats came up with a reasonable alternative I'd consider them but unfortunately they would rather support Iran than Israel. Anyone who believes that Iran is a moderate country is either willfully ignorant or has screwed up morals. Even Iranians don't want their dictatorship. There's another problem I have with democrats which is that they will portray themselves as morally superior by default. Many support causes not out of conviction bit to gain votes and power.

What is better; the wolf who looks like one or the one in sheep's clothing?
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chanatron1000




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jul 02 2020, 1:47 pm
Trump's support for Israel creates new enemies for Israel.
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mandksima




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jul 02 2020, 5:28 pm
To all those who would not side with Israel:

Don't all religious American Jews realize that America is only your temporary home? You are a guest although you have become comfortable. We pray daily for Hashem to take us out and bring us to Israel. Do you say those words too? Do you mean them? Just like we left Egypt (only 20% were interested in following Moshe and Hashem and survived), Hashem will have to bring remaining Jews out by force. Did the remaining 80% who put their faith in Egypt as it was their home and birthplace get anything out of their loyalty? Hashem did not look kindly upon them. We are ensured that the souls who perished there will have another chance to rectify their mistake in a different life in these last days before Moshiach. I hope you realize your roll in the world and not to repeat your soul's previous mistake by aligning your loyalty with your temporary dwelling. A frum Jew today should always have his bags packed for the big moment, already the Chofetz Chaim did when the world was still missing all of the redemption process signs, now it is obvious it can happen at any moment. You don't hope or plan on staying in America for long, do you?

How can a frum Jew who understands where our real future is feel little empathy for HASHEM'S LAND? Are you an American first or Jew first? A Jew cannot serve Hashem but deny the utmost importance to his land that is central to all belief in Judaism. You can and should have hakaras hatov for the country that let you live in it peacefully but that doesn't warrant splitting your loyalties with the Promised Land.

There have been many Torah shiurim about the importance of Trump in the redemption process. He doesn't have to be a tzaddik and America is supposed to be brought back from the edge of immorality so it is pretty obvious that it won't be a quiet and peaceful time before all of it's Jews will be brought to Israel. There are a lot of people that wish to see America destroyed and some new country in it's place that has lost any shred of morality based on Ten Commandments or at least the 7 mitzvos bnei Noach that the whole world is obligated to follow. Trump is trying to keep these values from disappearing entirely. Aren't you afraid to go down with the direction the country is headed? A Jew cannot separate his political views from what the Torah teaches and forewarns. That is like saying I keep the mitzvos but I don't let them interfere with the way I run my business. We answer to Hashem for everything we do and where our loyalties lie.
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jul 02 2020, 5:30 pm
chanatron1000 wrote:
Trump's support for Israel creates new enemies for Israel.


Lol. You’ve learned well from CNN.
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lavenderchimes




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jul 02 2020, 6:17 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Even all this?

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora.....11310

https://thehill.com/policy/int.....raeli

https://www.wsj.com/articles/d.....15148

https://www.aljazeera.com/news......html

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora.....13308


I think we both know that we could spend all day (or possibly the rest of our lives?) citing articles that back up our position, but I really don't have the time to dedicate to that.

But, if you don't know that, let me know, and I will try to find time to cite some articles, because I do think that it is vitally important that we ALL understand that the other side is (for the most part, anyway) neither ignorant or evil. We all have different opinions, logic, and reasons, most of which are valid.

And unfortunately, we live in a country where the media seems to be actively working to manipulate and divide people and sell to their base rather than accurately representing facts and the whole picture. So, we all get to choose what news we hear and believe. The end result is that we are not even experiencing the same reality. It's really messed up. At this point, I am very mistrustful of all media, and assume everything is being misrepresented. But I don't have time to fact-check EVERYTHING I read, so ... I still have to pick some sources that I feel are reasonably accurate/moderate. I see that most of your sources are very right wing. Do you fact-check your sources? It's so overwhelming to do it, but so important.

Some other points:

1. Just today I started thinking ... Israel needs to be able to stand on it's own two feet. How can it be the safe-haven for all the Jews when it can't support itself? I know it's very hard and complicated, but at the moment, if the whole world turned against us, Israel would be doomed, and millions of Jews would be killed, because Israel can't defend itself without outside help. That's NOT a good position to be in. How can we fix that???

2. I don't believe that Trump is pro-Israel. I believe that Trump is pro-Trump. He has done a good job of using Israel to win over the pro-Israel voter base, but I have no doubt that he would throw Israel under the bus if he thought it would help him.

3. My Rabbi told us to vote for "Whoever we thought was the most qualified." I never heard anything about how Trump's election was integral to the Redemption of the Jews. Do you really think that there will be no redemption if Trump loses?

4. Just because I am not a one-issue-pro-Israel voter does not mean that I have "little empathy" for Israel. Would YOU vote for someone who you felt would destroy America just because they pretended to be pro-Israel? Even if it cost American Jews their lives?

Oh, I could keep going, really, but ... I have a question for you, first:

Are you really interested in understanding my position? Because I have a new baby and a free-lance job, and PLENTY to do around the house, so I'm not interested in pointless debate. But I DO believe in learning, loving, understanding, etc. Please let me know:)
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lavenderchimes




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jul 02 2020, 6:58 pm
I just want to add that I believe that the worst thing for the Jews and the world right now is how hateful and divided we have become. I actually took a long break from imamother after my baby was born, because I found all the anger and spitefulness and bickering so painful, and I was already in too much (physical and emotional) pain from a traumatic labor and c section. We, as Jews, should act better!

I'm back, now, and addicted all over again, lol. But it pains me to see the lack of understanding and love that we have for one another. So I am very serious about being willing to engage and learn about your point of view, if you are serious about being willing to engage and learn about mine. But we have to try to be kind, because I'm not engaging in nastiness. I am trying to make a better world for my baby boy!
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ectomorph




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jul 02 2020, 7:06 pm
Like Fox says, it's a useful litmus test for anti semitism. Anti Zionism today is thinly veiled anti Semitism. Google Natan Sharansky's 3 D's for more information about that.
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jerusalem90




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 03 2020, 3:20 am
Theoretically, if one candidate were mildly pro-Israel and another was very pro-Israel, then I would look at other issues as well and wouldn't vote soley on Israel.

But if one is pro-Israel and the other is anti-Israel, then even if I disagree with the pro-Israel one on.everything else I'd vote for him/her.

Preventing another Holocaust is infinitely more important than anything else.
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Teomima




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 03 2020, 4:08 am
lavenderchimes wrote:
I was going to answer your question theoretically, as you posed it. Then I saw that you mentioned Trump in your poll ... so I'll do both. (I didn't pick a poll option, because none of them fit me, because you presented the options in a very biased manner.)

Theoretically: if both candidates are otherwise equally good for the US, I would absolutely vote pro-Israel. But I am not a one-issue voter: Israel is important to me, but it is not The Only Important Thing, or The Most Important Thing.

In the 2020 election: In my opinion, the pro-Israel candidate (Trump) is a terrible person and a terrible president who has stirred up a lot of racism and anti-semitism, hate and divisiveness, so I won't vote for him. The few things he has done for Israel do not outweigh all the bad things he has done for the US and around the world. (As a side note, all the neo-Nazi's support Trump, and there are plenty of anti-semites on both sides, but that doesn't really factor into my decisions - I don't care who is else is voting for who - I just care about the candidate.)

If I lived in Israel, I would obviously be voting pro-Israel, because that would be my country. But I don't live in Israel, so I am not going to throw my own country under a bus for Israel. I believe that I have a duty to vote for the good of the country that I am in, and also to take into account the good of Israel. I wish the Democrats were more pro-Israel, but ... they aren't. I wish many things were different about the Democratic platform, but I still generally agree with them more than I do with Trump. A LOT more.


As an Israeli-American (originally from the US, but live in Israel) I disagree with the bolded, though I strongly agree with your first three paragraphs.

Sure I take Israeli into consideration, and hypothetically were there two equally qualified candidates that I felt would both serve America well, yet differed on Israel, of course I'd choose the one that would be better for Israel. But my American vote takes America into consideration first and foremost (and, frankly, it's not like the US president has ever really had that much direct impact on my life in Israel. I care more about the Israeli vote when it comes to my safety, security, national and international policies). I would be doing a disservice to my fellow Americans, to the ones who reside in the US, if I chose their leader based on what was best for me, a relative minority who doesn't even reside in the same country where the president wields the most power.
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lavenderchimes




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 03 2020, 6:02 pm
Teomima wrote:
As an Israeli-American (originally from the US, but live in Israel) I disagree with the bolded, though I strongly agree with your first three paragraphs.

Sure I take Israeli into consideration, and hypothetically were there two equally qualified candidates that I felt would both serve America well, yet differed on Israel, of course I'd choose the one that would be better for Israel. But my American vote takes America into consideration first and foremost (and, frankly, it's not like the US president has ever really had that much direct impact on my life in Israel. I care more about the Israeli vote when it comes to my safety, security, national and international policies). I would be doing a disservice to my fellow Americans, to the ones who reside in the US, if I chose their leader based on what was best for me, a relative minority who doesn't even reside in the same country where the president wields the most power.


Yes. You make a lot of good points that I absolutely agree with. I don't think it's right to vote 100% in favor of what would be good for Israel if it would be very bad for those in the US. For those who believe Trump is a good president, this is a non-issue, so it's easy to say "I vote 100% pro-Israel", but I wonder (and never get an answer) if they would still vote pro-Israel if it just so happened that it was the liberal left who was pro-Israel and Trump who was pro-Palestine!

I obviously mis-spoke upthread (thats' what I get for typing with one hand in a rush whole taking care of my baby with my left hand!) - when I said "If I lived in Israel, I would vote pro Israel", I meant to say, "If I were an Israeli citizen, I would obviously be voting 100% pro-Israel, because that would be my country, etc."

The more I think about all this, the more questions I have, and the more I wonder how much the US president has to do with to well-being of Israel - or how much he/she SHOULD have to do with it ... ideally, Israel should be very strong and able to support it's own interests without ANY outside assistance. That is the only way the Jewish people can truly be protected. I don't know what the answer is.
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lavenderchimes




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 03 2020, 6:10 pm
My big theoretical question to all who are 100% one-issue-pro-Israel voters who support Trump is:

If the situation were flipped, and it were the Liberal Democrats who were pro-Israel - if it were Biden of Sanders or Warren or whoever – and you really believed that they, if elected, would bring the downfall of the US, would you still vote for them? Would you still be 100% one-issue-pro-Israel voters?

Maybe I'll make my own poll after Shabbos:)

Shabbat Shalom, everyone!!!
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MiracleMama




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 03 2020, 6:19 pm
I voted for the first option but I feel I need to explain....

Because it's not that I NEED my president to love Israel so much as anyone who has been duped into supporting the "oppressed Palestinians" can't be trusted to make good decisions about....anything.
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MiracleMama




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 03 2020, 6:21 pm
chanatron1000 wrote:
Trump's support for Israel creates new enemies for Israel.


So he should stop supporting Israel and create new friends for us instead?
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Jeanette




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jul 03 2020, 6:21 pm
Quote:

Yes. You make a lot of good points that I absolutely agree with. I don't think it's right to vote 100% in favor of what would be good for Israel if it would be very bad for those in the US. For those who believe Trump is a good president, this is a non-issue, so it's easy to say "I vote 100% pro-Israel", but I wonder (and never get an answer) if they would still vote pro-Israel if it just so happened that it was the liberal left who was pro-Israel and Trump who was pro-Palestine!

I obviously mis-spoke upthread (thats' what I get for typing with one hand in a rush whole taking care of my baby with my left hand!) - when I said "If I lived in Israel, I would vote pro Israel", I meant to say, "If I were an Israeli citizen, I would obviously be voting 100% pro-Israel, because that would be my country, etc."

The more I think about all this, the more questions I have, and the more I wonder how much the US president has to do with to well-being of Israel - or how much he/she SHOULD have to do with it ... ideally, Israel should be very strong and able to support it's own interests without ANY outside assistance. That is the only way the Jewish people can truly be protected. I don't know what the answer is.


Well, first of all, it makes me question (especially from an America-first perspective) why people should even be allowed to vote long term by absentee ballot if they’re living in another country. Especially with Trump agitating so much against voting by mail. Maybe there should be a limit on how many consecutive years you can vote absentee if you’ve moved out of the country. Because there is an issue of people choosing our president when they’re not the ones living with the consequences.

I also agree with you (and I’ve made this point in many other threads) that Israel has their own leaders to look out for their interests. A US president has many other priorities to deal with and Israel is a very small part of his agenda. An American president has very different considerations for its relationship with Saudi Arabia, Russia or Iran than what’s good for Israel. I’m not convinced that the destabilization of America’s relationship with its allies under Trump necessarily redounds to Israel’s benefit.

I think people also exaggerate a whole lot about which president is a friend or an enemy of Israel. Most US presidents did some good things for Israel and some bad things. I wish there was a way to have this discussion in a reasonable way without all the hyperbole (Greatest ohev Yisroel in history! Worst soneh Yisroel in history!)

I think ppl in this group would be surprised at how right wing my views on Israel are. I’m both pro settlement and pro annexation (although I think it should have been done way earlier). I don’t believe that a Palestinian people exist as an independent entity and the surrounding Arab countries need to take more responsibility to resettle and absorb them. And I still think Trump is a terrible president for Americans AND for Israelis.
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