Do you say hello to male neighbors?

amother

Blue

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 5:51 am

moonstone wrote:

First of all, Jewish men aren't "pure" - certainly not as a group. Individually, they're no more or less "pure" than men from any other group. What does "pure" even mean to you? People aren't pure.

And don't you think it would be better to "desensitize" your "pure" men to women's greetings so that a simple hello isn't turned into "omg, she has the hots for me!" in their head? Wouldn't it be a nicer world if men and women could greet each other simply as 2 members of the human race? I find this overzexualizing of the opposite gender extremely disturbing. In my world, men and women say hello. We even <gasp> have conversations, and the sky hasn't fallen yet.

Yisroel Am Kedoshim.
I didn’t make up those words, we are a holy and pure nation, as a whole.
And even if what you’re suggesting makes sense to you the Rabbanim disagree.
At least the ones I follow.
So please respect that.

amother

Blue

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 5:59 am

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

I have occasionally shaken hands with non Jewish male vendors and clients who would have been insulted if I didn't.
I have never shaken hands with a frum male client or vendor. I hope your husband isn't insulted.

My cousin had a class trip to the White House years ago with her students.
It was very exciting and very major.
But she forgot to plan what to do in regards to hand shaking.
The president at the time was Bill Clinton and when he came in he stretched out his hand to shake hers.
She was young, she turned beet red but left it hanging and said she’s so grateful and excited to be there with her students and Jewish law forbids handshaking with any male figure even a president.
He was actually impressed.
And it was a major teachable moment for her students.
I didn’t ask a Rabbi about it but I’m pretty sure shaking hands with him or any other male is completely and entirely forbidden, even if it would cause a chilul Hashem not to.
But if you’re nice and explain it as your religion then it doesn’t even cause a chilul Hashem.

amother

Mauve

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 7:35 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

There are actually rabbanim that allow handshaking in certain situations.
I don’t know if this situation qualifies, but if you expect it in advance it is always good to ask a sheilah.

amother

Lawngreen

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 10:28 am

I think that these days we've become so desensitized we hardly understand anymore what's appropriate and what's not. I'm in my 20s and grew up non-Jewish and still every time I see how high school girls are dressed in my area, I'm in shock how their parents can leave them out of the house like that. I remember after losing my v-rginity I felt "What do I care to sleep with anyone anymore? I've already done it once, so what does it even matter?" I think back and feel sorry for the old me. I was so confused.

Since becoming Jewish I'd discovered kedusha. Real holiness within a marital relationship. And it has helped my sense of self and self esteem beyond words. I value myself. And part of this is valuing the exclusivity of marriage and also that of other women. So when I don't smile and say hello to your husband it's not because I think I'm holier than thou or don't care to be rude. It's because my marriage and yours is too special to cheapen it with idle chatter and dumb niceties.

malki2

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 10:32 am

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

There are actually rabbanim that allow handshaking in certain situations.
I don’t know if this situation qualifies, but if you expect it in advance it is always good to ask a sheilah.

And there are Rabbonim who do not. Such as the Chazon Ish. So of course people have whom to rely on if they do choose. But kudos to those who do not and also stand for their principles as this young woman did. Imagine the impression that was made on her young students. Then imagine what would have happened had their teacher relied on some heter and extended her hand to Bill Clinton. What a teachable moment this was!!

amother

Forestgreen

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 10:47 am

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

Lol
How judgmental.
You’re shocked why I “let” my teenage daughters dress a certain way?
I have zero influence or input in how they dress.

Let me give you some insight into raising teens, since you’re very young.
I might insist, for example, that my daughter not leave the house with bare legs, and the second I’m out of sight, the tights/socks will come off.

amother

Sienna

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 10:54 am

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

How does sharing a pleasant greeting with a neighbor cheapen anyone's marriage, and what does it have to do with your unfortunate early experiences as part of an unhealthy society?

moonstone

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 10:58 am

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

I don't understand how being cordial to another person is cheapening your marriage. My marriage is special too, but it's not so fragile that it will fall apart if my husband and I talk to people of the opposite zex. Why should your spouse be the only person of the opposite zex you speak to? That sounds eerie, to be honest. Idle chatter and dumb niceties, as you put it, are part of living in the world with other people.

soap suds

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 11:04 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

I greet anyone unless it seems like he would prefer that females are invisible. (I am JPF living in lakewood) So does the rest of my family and my immediate circles anyhow. Greeting doesn’t mean flirting!

This whole concept honestly reminds me of the concept that it is forbidden to add mitzvos. (Bal tosif?) it was wrong that adam told chava she couldn’t touch the tree. Because when right turns into wrong problems happen.

If woman cannot exist unless married to one, then all of a sudden existing is s-xual? Thats how it seems. All of a sudden saying excuse me because a guy cut me in line is a s-xual advancement on my end because interaction is not allowed?

Why when my male neighbor doesn’t greet me, it must be because he wants me to be invisible? This usually works both ways. I don’t greet my frum male neighbors, either. Is it because in the chasidishe world men are invisible? Why do people like turning everything into a poor, oppressed women issue?

SixOfWands

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 11:18 am

malki2 wrote:

Please tell us what would have happened.

Disclaimer: I've shaken Bill Clinton's hand.

Chayalle

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 11:20 am

I'll be honest here - I grew up in a very frum neighborhood (not Lakewood) and men nodded or greated women, said Good Shabbos, nothing more, just basic social mentchlichkeit. It did not lead to any increased unholy issues between men and women, to the best of my knowledge. I even said Good Shabbos to the boys next door who were in my age range (and I still would Smile

- at a recent Simcha, they came over to say hello to me at the mechitza. Very frum yeshivish people, too.) It's how I was raised.

One of my sister's fondest memories of the very choshuve, yeshivish R"Y whose shul my parents davened in, is him racing up the outside stairs ahead of her (he was likely in his 80's at least) to hold the door open as she was carrying in platters for a Simcha.

I remember driving with my friend on a boiling hot summer day, and we saw Rabbi X, menahel of the boys' school, walking. We knew where he lived - up a steep hill, so we stopped and asked if we could give him a ride. He accepted and warmly bentched us both for the Chessed.

I remember my high-school Halacha class being taught by local Talmidei Chachamim. I saw the very frum BY teachers great them respectfully, sometimes inquiring about how his wife was doing post-baby, etc...

I first encountered the no-greeting-pretend-women-don't-exist after I got married and moved to Lakewood. It's not universal though - just some people. I guess some people have that shittah. It can be very uncomfortable.

In my neighborhood, some very frum men will nod, etc...the Rav of our shul definitely would. I find it tends to be some of the younger crowd, but not exclusively....

amother

Blue

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 11:32 am

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

Exactly.
What’s the point of all the niceties. Frum people understand that nobody is trying to be rude. I don’t get what’s the issue.

amother

Blue

Wed, Aug 12 2020, 11:39 am

Chayalle wrote:

I agree with you too. Lol
I personally know very choshuv older people who talk politely to the opposite gender.
But nowadays In the younger generation it became accepted not to. And I don’t think it’s a bad thing.
Everything is much more light and open these days, people lost their sensitivities of what’s appropriate and what’s not.
So I think In general it’s a good thing.