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Will the lockdown happen in Israel for the Chagim?
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amother




Violet
 

Post  Sun, Sep 13 2020, 7:58 pm
Mama Bear wrote:
I'm worried. I don't want to see police vs civilian clashes on the yomim noraim. People are gonna wanna go daven in their usual shuls. I don't see this ending well at all.


I'm with you. I live in a secular city and people have had enough of it too. It pains me to see people ticketed by the police for not wearing masks outdoors, especially today I saw a young man get ticketed while sitting on a bench at least 5 meters away from the nearest human. On the other hand I can't hate the police because they are just doing their job, and when I was young I had a job that I hated, enforcing rules that I disagreed with, but I needed the money. I blame the government. I voted Likud this time, but next time I'm voting Litzman.
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SuperWify




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Sep 13 2020, 8:11 pm
Crazy Sad hugs to my Israeli amothers.

Is this lockdown being enforced with police barriers? How are they going to make sure no one is leaving their neighborhood?
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essie14




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 12:18 am
Mama Bear wrote:
I'm worried. I don't want to see police vs civilian clashes on the yomim noraim. People are gonna wanna go daven in their usual shuls. I don't see this ending well at all.

Most people haven't been davening in their regular shuls for 5 months. and people who care about not getting sick ,like my family, were planning on davening in an outdoor minyan anyway. So we won't be clashing with any police.
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essie14




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 12:19 am
SuperWify wrote:
Crazy Sad hugs to my Israeli amothers.

Is this lockdown being enforced with police barriers? How are they going to make sure no one is leaving their neighborhood?

It's the same as the Pesach lockdown.
This is nothing new, we've done it before.
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Elfrida




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 12:56 am
No one had any real expectation of davening in their regular shul. They were waiting to hear exactly what the limitations are going to be, but the arrangements for outside and lobby minyanim have been in place for a while. They might not limit themselves to twenty, but will be within reach of the regulations.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 2:28 am
Iymnok wrote:
If anyone in a hospital tests positive for corona, theyare sent to the corona ward regardless of what service they need. (ABX drip, childbirth, broken bone, ...) So the numbers of ill are inflated as well.

The alternative to sending them to the coronavirus ward is to leave them in a regular ward with a bunch of people who are vulnerable to the virus, and a bunch of staff who aren't in full coronavirus-ward PPE and would have to quarantine. That's why they are separated out.

It's not an inflation of the numbers if they really are taking up a real hospital bed and real staff attention.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 2:34 am
amother [ Violet ] wrote:
I voted Likud this time, but next time I'm voting Litzman.

Litzman and Deri were the ones threatening to topple the coalition if the government shut down red zones, or did anything else short of a full lockdown.

Their opposition to the lockdown is meaningless if they aren't going to allow any alternative.
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 2:38 am
amother [ Violet ] wrote:
I'm with you. I live in a secular city and people have had enough of it too. It pains me to see people ticketed by the police for not wearing masks outdoors, especially today I saw a young man get ticketed while sitting on a bench at least 5 meters away from the nearest human. On the other hand I can't hate the police because they are just doing their job, and when I was young I had a job that I hated, enforcing rules that I disagreed with, but I needed the money. I blame the government. I voted Likud this time, but next time I'm voting Litzman.

Not sure why you would "hate' the police (!)...

But I agree that, given the fact that there is no shortage of people not wearing masks/not wearing masks correctly, the police should prioritize ticketing those most likely to infect others; I.e., those not wearing masks covering mouth + nose in indoor venues (malls, stores, etc.) where they are within 2m of others.

Not sure how voting for Litzman, of all people, will correct any of these problems. Perhaps because Litzman would be against enforcement of any rules whatsoever?
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etky




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 2:53 am
essie14 wrote:
Most people haven't been davening in their regular shuls for 5 months. and people who care about not getting sick ,like my family, were planning on davening in an outdoor minyan anyway. So we won't be clashing with any police.


Same.
I haven't stepped foot in my shul in over 6 month - since Shabbat Shekalim in late February.
Previous to Corona I had only missed fewer than a handful of shabbatot and chagim in shul in over 15 years, b"h.
OTOH, I have been attending our street minyan consistently since right after Purim and regard myself as extemely lucky to have that option.
It's the davening that counts, not the shul.
You make due.
Shul - as in the luxury of davening inside the building - is not worth risking getting sick for or - on the national level - jeapordizing the success of this extremely costly new closure that will hopefully bring down the infection rates.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 3:37 am
Mama Bear wrote:
I'm worried. I don't want to see police vs civilian clashes on the yomim noraim. People are gonna wanna go daven in their usual shuls. I don't see this ending well at all.
I know many shuls in my area have had sign up lists so that people who want to daven IN the shul can but wen the amount is full (whatever number that will be for the chagim) they cant have any more people. And there are many many out door minyanim. Its been like this (with a specific amount of people allowed in the shul) since the last lock down.
I dont actually think the shuls are where police are going to be having issues Sad
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banana123




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 3:44 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
I know many shuls in my area have had sign up lists so that people who want to daven IN the shul can but wen the amount is full (whatever number that will be for the chagim) they cant have any more people. And there are many many out door minyanim. Its been like this (with a specific amount of people allowed in the shul) since the last lock down.
I dont actually think the shuls are where police are going to be having issues Sad

They'd have issues with the shuls here, if they bothered enforcing anything.
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:29 am
I don't think they want the "bad optics" of police entering shuls ad arresting people. Not a good look.

But in cases of really egregious violations, I don't think it would look bad at all to the general pubic, especially when the entire country is supposed to be locking down.
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banana123




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:33 am
I don't understand why we are pouring billions into a three-week lockdown but allowing groups of 25 indoors, when it's clear that the rules will not be kept 100% and even more clear that the rules are a sug daled attempt at preventing infection.

It's just insanity. And worst of all, most communities will jump on it.

I wish the charedi MKs would stop making this into a religious-political issue. It's not. There are solutions in halacha for situations like this. I don't understand why they're not promoting any of them, and acting like overtired 5yos instead.
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:51 am
banana123 wrote:
I don't understand why we are pouring billions into a three-week lockdown but allowing groups of 25 indoors, when it's clear that the rules will not be kept 100% and even more clear that the rules are a sug daled attempt at preventing infection.

It's just insanity. And worst of all, most communities will jump on it.


I wish the charedi MKs would stop making this into a religious-political issue. It's not. There are solutions in halacha for situations like this. I don't understand why they're not promoting any of them, and acting like overtired 5yos instead.

Agree with you on the red.

Not sure I understand your blue comment. What's wrong with 25 people outdoors (SD, masks, etc.)? If people won't obey rules, that is another thing, but what is wrong with this in principle? Nobody is going to tolerate NOBODY being allowed outdoors for 3+ weeks. Is that what you want?
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amother




Goldenrod
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:58 am
Well our problem is that the shul closest to us does not follow rules and I wouldn't trust them so my husband has been walking to a "safe" shul but its more than 500 m from our house.
Idk what we are going to do
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banana123




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 5:05 am
DrMom wrote:
Agree with you on the red.

Not sure I understand your blue comment. What's wrong with 25 people outdoors (SD, masks, etc.)? If people won't obey rules, that is another thing, but what is wrong with this in principle? Nobody is going to tolerate NOBODY being allowed outdoors for 3+ weeks. Is that what you want?

The plan calls for up to 25 people INDOORS, other than in "red" areas. (BTW, most of the new infections are NOT in "red" areas.)

I have no issue with up to 20 people davening OUTDOORS. But what they are proposing for INSIDE shuls is insanity and completely kills any benefit we'd get from this expensive, annoying, 3-week lockdown. If you're going to do a lockdown, do it right. If you can't do it right, don't do it at all.


Worse yet, it incentivizes praying indoors, because larger groups are allowed.

Quote:
For example, in a house of prayer in a yellow area that is 400 square meters in size and which has two entrance doors, it shall be permitted to have 4 capsules of 25 people each (25 people in each capsule, 2 entrances multiplied by 2, yields 100 people in the structure while maintaining the ratio of one person per 4 square meters of space.


https://www.israelnationalnews.....87171
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etky




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 5:31 am
banana123 wrote:
I don't understand why we are pouring billions into a three-week lockdown but allowing groups of 25 indoors, when it's clear that the rules will not be kept 100% and even more clear that the rules are a sug daled attempt at preventing infection.

It's just insanity. And worst of all, most communities will jump on it.

I wish the charedi MKs would stop making this into a religious-political issue. It's not. There are solutions in halacha for situations like this. I don't understand why they're not promoting any of them, and acting like overtired 5yos instead.


This. Exactly.
This closure is beginning to look like Swiss cheese with a million holes in it and one of the biggest holes is allowing davening inside.
It's insanity and will defeat the entire purpose and sacrifice involved in the closure.
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Success10




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 5:36 am
They should have very limited seating for indoors prayer, for elderly people who need A/C and such. But otherwise, it should be outdoors, or not at all. As others have said, if you're doing it already, do it right. And hopefully, not have to do it again.
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 5:45 am
INDOORS?? Davka now that cases are exploding?
That is way too stupid for words.

Sorry for misreading. Indoors?? Srsly?

At least it is capped according to capacity. So 25 people in the big Belz shul that holds 10,000 people is okay; 25 in a neighborhood shteibel not so much.

Problem is, I don't trust some communities to follow rules, and it is hard to enforce unless police start going into shuls for surprise inspections. Not great optics, so they won't do that.
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banana123




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Sep 14 2020, 5:50 am
DrMom wrote:
INDOORS?? Davka now that cases are exploding?
That is way too stupid for words.

Sorry for misreading. Indoors?? Srsly?

At least it is capped according to capacity. So 25 people in the big Belz shul that holds 10,000 people is okay; 25 in a neighborhood shteibel not so much.

Now you understand why I'm so frustrated??

Capped, but do you believe in enforcement? I no longer do.
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