Home

Purim is a simcha? Isn't that selfish?
  Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next  Last >>
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Purim


View latest: 24h 48h 72h


iyar




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Feb 24 2021, 6:34 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Yes, as described to begin with, there are a lot of reasons why things in this story (Purim) went great for 99.99% of the jews, including me!

But, Esther sacrificed everything except her life (and she did risk that--she was willing to give that up too!).

And that's what bothered me. That I should rejoice and party when all of this came at Esther's great expense. There's part of that which feels insensitive.

She had no one, etc.

This is epitomized when "avadati, avadati" is read in the megillah, in the trope of eicha. And, according to the commentaries, it was said twice because she was lost to family as she was an orphan who never knew her parents and then she was lost to Mordechai - not only her only family, but her husband. Her choice to save us meant she had to give up the only family she ever knew and would never again have any direct connection with the Jewish people. Even her son with Achashverosh was not raised as a Jew (which was out of her control). She had to watch her child raised as a non jew without anything she could practically do, and they would never be able to connect due to Jewish identity or feeling.

But, we have a big discussion here to understand how to celebrate not only despite this sad aspect, but also because of appreciating even more what Esther did willingly and for the rest of her life given these sad aspects.


We're Jews. Celebrating with broken hearts is our specialty. We put ashes on the chosson's head before we take him to the chuppah. We wish each other Mazel Tov while the tiny new Jew cries at his Bris. We dance at simchas while we remember the people who aren't there do dance with us. Holding two feelings in our hearts at the same time is what we do best. We celebrate Purim because our lives were saved while shedding a tear when we hear the words ve'kaasher avad'ti avad'ti in the Megillah.
Until Mashiach comes and we can put the tears away and feel complete joy.
Back to top

Silence




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Feb 24 2021, 7:08 pm
I just wrote a poem on this before someone told me about this thread.

Read it here:
https://www.imamother.com/foru.....21345
Back to top

amother




Blush
 

Post Wed, Feb 24 2021, 7:18 pm
amother [ White ] wrote:
This thread is fascinating and has really given me more insight into the story of Purim.
Thank you OP for starting this.

Blush, I appreciate all your commentary, you seem to know and research a lot!


Thank you! I love to discuss these things and there are always other women on Imamother who are happy to discuss them as well!

OP, I dont know if this was mentioned in this thread or another, but I had recommended a shiur on another thread by Rabbi YY Jacobson on the topic of taanis Esther which I heard 2 years ago. I just listened to it again, and he actually mentions there that once a woman approached him and said that every year on Purim, while everyone is rejoicing, she cries (sounds just like you!) . And he shared what he responded to her. He said that he cannot answer her, but asked her to imagine if a young girl, a graduate of Sara Schenirir's school in Krakow, a girl who wanted to marry the next gadol hador, was summoned to a Hitler in 1938, and asked to be his consort. And in exchange she knew that the holocaust would not happen. Of course this is all theoretical because no one knows anything. But theoretically, if she was given the choice, yes, she would be sacrificing her life and future on so many levels. But how would she feel, to the end of her days, if she knew that because of her, 6 million of her brethren, men women and children were spared? She would be filled with tremendous simcha. And while this does not mean that there was not a pocket of sadness, it does mean that some people are called on to do tremendous things and when they are able to do it, there is no greater happiness.
He also gave other responses to this subject.
I recommend you listen to the shiur. Its on Torah anytime, called The Fast of Esther- or something like that.
Back to top

cutestbaby




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Feb 24 2021, 7:20 pm
amother [ Blush ] wrote:
Thank you! I love to discuss these things and there are always other women on Imamother who are happy to discuss them as well!

OP, I dont know if this was mentioned in this thread or another, but I had recommended a shiur on another thread by Rabbi YY Jacobson on the topic of taanis Esther which I heard 2 years ago. I just listened to it again, and he actually mentions there that once a woman approached him and says that every year on Purim, while everyone is rejoicing, she cries (sounds just like you!) . And he shared what he responded to her. He said that he cannot answer her, but asked her to imagine if a young girl, a graduate of Sara Schenirir's school in Krakow, a girl who wanted to marry the next gadol hador, was summoned to a Hitler in 1938, and asked to be his consort. And in exchange she knew that the holocaust would not happen. Of course this is all theoretical because no one knows anything. But theoretically, if she was given kn the choice, yes, she would be sacrificing her life and future on so many levels. But how would she feel, to the end of her days, if she knew that because of her, 6 million of her brethren, men women and children were spared? She would be filled with tremendous simcha. And while this does not mean that there was not a pocket of sadness, it does mean that some people are called on to do tremendous things and when they are able to do it, there is no greater happiness.
He also gave other responses to this subject.
I recommend you listen to the shiur. Its on Torah anytime, called The Fast of Esther- or something like that.

this sounds great! Can you link it pleaaase?
Back to top

amother




Blush
 

Post Wed, Feb 24 2021, 7:28 pm
I also want to go pack to a point that was discussed earlier in this thread about Esther cohabiting with Achashveirosh. There is an opinion that a malach went in her place. But the other opinion is that she went, but she made herself like "karka"- like a piece of earth. Meaning, she was just passive. She did what she had to do, she played her role, but did not actively engage. And afterwards, she would immerse and go to her husband's "bossom". She was mutar to her husband as long is she was an ones (forced.)
As far as children are concerned, there are different opinions. Some say she gave birth to Darius 2, and some say Koresh. I once learned that she actually got pregnant even before she went to Achashveirosh willingly (which would mean that she personally went, and not a malach) but that she miscarried. When Mordechai sent her a message about the imminent destruction of the Jews, the megilla says "vatischalchal hamalka" which means the queen was alarmed/shocked. But I once heard that it means she miscarried. Out of alarm and panic, she lost the baby. Anyone ever heard this pshat? I would love to know the source.
Back to top

amother




Blush
 

Post Wed, Feb 24 2021, 7:33 pm
amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:
I am listening to the shiur by Rabbi Jacobson that somebody recommended on the other thread, he is talking exactly about this question! The whole shiur is very inspiring, but specifically this question is addressed from the 44th minute.

https://www.theyeshiva.net/jew.....sther

or youtube

https://youtu.be/9TrmTEWnJaw


I just went back and saw that someone already posted this. This is the shiur I was talking about (which I posted on another thread..sorry just getting confused where I posted what.) It's long, but fascinating.
Back to top

amother




Cerise
 

Post Wed, Feb 24 2021, 8:37 pm
I didn't learn anything abt a miscarriage but did learn in school that she still able to immerse in the mikvah and have relations with Mordechai as long as she waited to be summoned to the king and didn't go of her own accord. (That's why he was always hanging around the palace I guess, and why he was able to overhear the secret assassination plot.)
That's why at first she was reluctant to do as Mordechai told her to do, and go to the king. She knew she would be completely forbidden to Mordechai after that.
Back to top

shanie5




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Feb 24 2021, 10:36 pm
amother [ Blush ] wrote:
I also want to go pack to a point that was discussed earlier in this thread about Esther cohabiting with Achashveirosh. There is an opinion that a malach went in her place. But the other opinion is that she went, but she made herself like "karka"- like a piece of earth. Meaning, she was just passive. She did what she had to do, she played her role, but did not actively engage. And afterwards, she would immerse and go to her husband's "bossom". She was mutar to her husband as long is she was an ones (forced.)
As far as children are concerned, there are different opinions. Some say she gave birth to Darius 2, and some say Koresh. I once learned that she actually got pregnant even before she went to Achashveirosh willingly (which would mean that she personally went, and not a malach) but that she miscarried. When Mordechai sent her a message about the imminent destruction of the Jews, the megilla says "vatischalchal hamalka" which means the queen was alarmed/shocked. But I once heard that it means she miscarried. Out of alarm and panic, she lost the baby. Anyone ever heard this pshat? I would love to know the source.


I heard this too. Though in my memory, she miscarried out of fear as she went into the throne room without being summoned.
I also heard that she already had a child by the time whe went to the throne room.
Back to top

Ihatepotatoes




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Feb 24 2021, 11:11 pm
Reality wrote:
Green undertones. Not literally pea green. As in she had dark skin. As opposed to fair skin which was considered the most beautiful at that time.


Green (Yarok) in the Gemara and Mishna is Yellow. So she had a yellowish tinge.
Back to top

etky




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Feb 25 2021, 3:57 am
shanie5 wrote:
I heard this too. Though in my memory, she miscarried out of fear as she went into the throne room without being summoned.
I also heard that she already had a child by the time whe went to the throne room.


חלחלה in modern Hebrew means horror/fear or revulsion and it definitely has a physical aspect. It is an emotion that is felt viscerally, in the gut.
There is a passuk in Yishayahu (21:3) that uses the word to denote physical anguish, as a parallelism to the pain of giving birth:
עַל כֵּן מָלְאוּ מָתְנַי חַלְחָלָה צִירִים אֲחָזוּנִי כְּצִירֵי יוֹלֵדָה נַעֲוֵיתִי מִשְּׁמֹעַ נִבְהַלְתִּי מֵרְאוֹת.
Perhaps this is the linguistic anchor of the midrash about Esther having miscarried out of fear.
Back to top

amother




OP
 

Post Thu, Feb 25 2021, 4:47 am
amother [ Blush ] wrote:
I just went back and saw that someone already posted this. This is the shiur I was talking about (which I posted on another thread..sorry just getting confused where I posted what.) It's long, but fascinating.
So after I listened to the R Glatstein talk, I also went and found that YY talk (and the short portion addressing the same question of mine - and no, I was not the woman who asked YY about it--was also posted the same day on the YY WhatsApp group).

It was fascinating, and I also found much comfort in both of those shiurim, especially the portion in the YY talk that addressed my exact question! Thank you so much for helping me find those talks so I could work at resolving this internal conflict!
Back to top

amother




Salmon
 

Post Thu, Feb 25 2021, 4:59 am
etky wrote:
חלחלה in modern Hebrew means horror/fear or revulsion and it definitely has a physical aspect. It is an emotion that is felt viscerally, in the gut.
There is a passuk in Yishayahu (21:3) that uses the word to denote physical anguish, as a parallelism to the pain of giving birth:
עַל כֵּן מָלְאוּ מָתְנַי חַלְחָלָה צִירִים אֲחָזוּנִי כְּצִירֵי יוֹלֵדָה נַעֲוֵיתִי מִשְּׁמֹעַ נִבְהַלְתִּי מֵרְאוֹת.
Perhaps this is the linguistic anchor of the midrash about Esther having miscarried out of fear.


ותחלחל shares a root with חלל, emptiness. That's why there are explanations that she had stomach distress, or that she miscarried. The word implies that somehow, she was emptied out.
Back to top

etky




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Feb 25 2021, 5:51 am
amother [ Salmon ] wrote:
ותחלחל shares a root with חלל, emptiness. That's why there are explanations that she has stomach distress, or that she miscarried. The word implies that somehow, she was emptied out.


The more straightforward interpretation would indeed be that she (pardon the imagery) had a 'loose stomach', which is a normal visceral response in the gut to fear.
The pasuk in Yishayahu links חלחלה poetically to the pains of childbirth and lends legitimacy to interpreting it here, in Esther, as miscarriage, which would otherwise not be the most obvious meaning of the word. I don't know if this is what this particular opinion in chazal hinges on but it does set up an analogy.
Back to top

amother




Blush
 

Post Thu, Feb 25 2021, 7:47 am
Thank you so much Etky and Salmon for that grammtical explanation and textual reference. The beauty of lashon hakodesh is that it lends itself to multiple meanings.
Funny how some things stick with you. Every year when I hear those words I imagine the queen going into shock and having a miscarriage.
Back to top

goodmorning




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Feb 25 2021, 10:41 am
The source of the medrash about Esther miscarrying is Esther Rabba 8:3.

Quote:

וַתָּבוֹאנָה נַעֲרוֹת אֶסְתֵּר וְסָרִיסֶיהָ וַיַּגִּידוּ לָהּ וַתִּתְחַלְחַל הַמַּלְכָּה מְאֹד (אסתר ד, ד), רַבָּנָן דְּתַמָּן אָמְרִין שֶׁפֵּרְסָה נִדָּה, וְרַבָּנָן דְּהָכָא אָמְרִין הִפִּילָה עֻבָּרָהּ, וּמִשָּׁעָה שֶׁהִפִּילָה שׁוּב לֹא יָלְדָה. רַבִּי יוּדָן בְּרַבִּי סִימוֹן אָמַר בְּמוֹךְ הָיְתָה מְשַׁמֶּשֶׁת. אָמַר רַבִּי יוּדָן בְּרַבִּי סִימוֹן דָּרְיָוֶשׁ הָאַחֲרוֹן בְּנָהּ שֶׁל אֶסְתֵּר הָיָה, טָהוֹר מֵאִמּוֹ וְטָמֵא מֵאָבִיו.

"When Esther’s maidens and eunuchs came and informed her, the queen was greatly agitated." (Esther 4:4) The Rabbis of there say that she began menstruating, and the Rabbis of here say that she miscarried her fetus, and from the time that she miscarried, she never again gave birth. Rabbi Yudan b'Rabi Simon said: She would use a barrier contraceptive. Rabbi Yudan B'Rabi Simon said: The last Darius was Esther's son, pure through his mother and impure through his father.

(translation courtesy of sefaria)

The Etz Yosef gives the etymological explanation of this drash:
Quote:

הפילה עוברה. דרשו כן ממלת ותתחלחל לפי שיש פעולות מורות על היפך הפעולה וכמו מקרקר קיר. הוסר מה שהיה בחללה. או ירצו מה שקודם היתה מלאה ומעוברת כאומרו אני מלאה הלכתי. כעצמות בבטן המלאה. עתה נשארה ריקה וחלולה. ודרשו שוב לא ילדה מאומרו ותתחלחל כי היה די כשיאמר ותחל כי שרשו חיל. ואמר ותתחלחל כפל האותיות להרבות הפעולה ששוב לא ילדה. או דייקו זה מאומר מאד [מגלת סתרים] והיינו שלא מצינו שילדה בנים לאחשורוש לפי שנתקלקלה מלקבל הריון (יפה ענף)


And also adds a thought about why Esther miscarried:
Quote:

. ודבר זה הגיע לה שכיון שאחשורוש עשה דבר זה להשמיד ולהרוג את ישראל לא היה ראוי שיהיה לו שם בישראל ויהיה לו תולדה בהם ולפיכך הולד שהיתה מעוברת הפילה ושוב לא ילדה מטעם זה שאין ראוי שיהיה זרעו בישראל כי נכרי ועבד הבא על ישראלית הולד כשר. ואף שחזר בו והפך אותו על המן. דבר זה לא היה מאחשורוש עצמו רק מצד כי יד ה' עשתה זאת. אבל הוא ברשעו מתחלתו ועד סופו [אור חדש]:

(Loosely translated by me: This happened because once Achashverosh did this terrible deed, to plan to kill and destroy Bnei Yisroel, he was no longer worthy of having a child who would be part of Bnei Yisroel (because the child of a non-Jewish man a Jewish woman is Jewish). Therefore, she miscarried the pregnancy and never again became pregnant through him. And even though he later took back his decision and punished Haman [and allowed the Jews to fight back], that was only because Hashem made him do so. But Achashverosh himself stayed in his wickedness from the beginning until the end [and not worthy of a Jewish child].)
Back to top

PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Feb 25 2021, 12:00 pm
goodmorning wrote:
The source of the medrash about Esther miscarrying is Esther Rabba 8:3.

Quote:

וַתָּבוֹאנָה נַעֲרוֹת אֶסְתֵּר וְסָרִיסֶיהָ וַיַּגִּידוּ לָהּ וַתִּתְחַלְחַל הַמַּלְכָּה מְאֹד (אסתר ד, ד), רַבָּנָן דְּתַמָּן אָמְרִין שֶׁפֵּרְסָה נִדָּה, וְרַבָּנָן דְּהָכָא אָמְרִין הִפִּילָה עֻבָּרָהּ, וּמִשָּׁעָה שֶׁהִפִּילָה שׁוּב לֹא יָלְדָה. רַבִּי יוּדָן בְּרַבִּי סִימוֹן אָמַר בְּמוֹךְ הָיְתָה מְשַׁמֶּשֶׁת. אָמַר רַבִּי יוּדָן בְּרַבִּי סִימוֹן דָּרְיָוֶשׁ הָאַחֲרוֹן בְּנָהּ שֶׁל אֶסְתֵּר הָיָה, טָהוֹר מֵאִמּוֹ וְטָמֵא מֵאָבִיו.

"When Esther’s maidens and eunuchs came and informed her, the queen was greatly agitated." (Esther 4:4) The Rabbis of there say that she began menstruating, and the Rabbis of here say that she miscarried her fetus, and from the time that she miscarried, she never again gave birth. Rabbi Yudan b'Rabi Simon said: She would use a barrier contraceptive. Rabbi Yudan B'Rabi Simon said: The last Darius was Esther's son, pure through his mother and impure through his father.

(translation courtesy of sefaria)

The Etz Yosef gives the etymological explanation of this drash:
Quote:

הפילה עוברה. דרשו כן ממלת ותתחלחל לפי שיש פעולות מורות על היפך הפעולה וכמו מקרקר קיר. הוסר מה שהיה בחללה. או ירצו מה שקודם היתה מלאה ומעוברת כאומרו אני מלאה הלכתי. כעצמות בבטן המלאה. עתה נשארה ריקה וחלולה. ודרשו שוב לא ילדה מאומרו ותתחלחל כי היה די כשיאמר ותחל כי שרשו חיל. ואמר ותתחלחל כפל האותיות להרבות הפעולה ששוב לא ילדה. או דייקו זה מאומר מאד [מגלת סתרים] והיינו שלא מצינו שילדה בנים לאחשורוש לפי שנתקלקלה מלקבל הריון (יפה ענף)


And also adds a thought about why Esther miscarried:
Quote:

. ודבר זה הגיע לה שכיון שאחשורוש עשה דבר זה להשמיד ולהרוג את ישראל לא היה ראוי שיהיה לו שם בישראל ויהיה לו תולדה בהם ולפיכך הולד שהיתה מעוברת הפילה ושוב לא ילדה מטעם זה שאין ראוי שיהיה זרעו בישראל כי נכרי ועבד הבא על ישראלית הולד כשר. ואף שחזר בו והפך אותו על המן. דבר זה לא היה מאחשורוש עצמו רק מצד כי יד ה' עשתה זאת. אבל הוא ברשעו מתחלתו ועד סופו [אור חדש]:

(Loosely translated by me: This happened because once Achashverosh did this terrible deed, to plan to kill and destroy Bnei Yisroel, he was no longer worthy of having a child who would be part of Bnei Yisroel (because the child of a non-Jewish man a Jewish woman is Jewish). Therefore, she miscarried the pregnancy and never again became pregnant through him. And even though he later took back his decision and punished Haman [and allowed the Jews to fight back], that was only because Hashem made him do so. But Achashverosh himself stayed in his wickedness from the beginning until the end [and not worthy of a Jewish child].)


So who was Daryavesh?
Back to top

amother




Blush
 

Post Thu, Feb 25 2021, 12:12 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
So who was Daryavesh?


Machlokes between Rabbi Yudan and Eitz Yosef.
רַבִּי יוּדָן בְּרַבִּי סִימוֹן דָּרְיָוֶשׁ הָאַחֲרוֹן בְּנָהּ שֶׁל אֶסְתֵּר הָיָה, טָהוֹר מֵאִמּוֹ וְטָמֵא מֵאָבִיו.
Rabbi Yudan says Daryavesh the second was the son of Esther and Achashveirosh. Eitz Yosef says he was not her son, because Achashveirish wasn't worthy of having his seed in Klal Yisroel.

Thank you Goodmorning for these references!
Back to top

goodmorning




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Feb 25 2021, 1:18 pm
amother [ Blush ] wrote:
Machlokes between Rabbi Yudan and Eitz Yosef.
רַבִּי יוּדָן בְּרַבִּי סִימוֹן דָּרְיָוֶשׁ הָאַחֲרוֹן בְּנָהּ שֶׁל אֶסְתֵּר הָיָה, טָהוֹר מֵאִמּוֹ וְטָמֵא מֵאָבִיו.
Rabbi Yudan says Daryavesh the second was the son of Esther and Achashveirosh. Eitz Yosef says he was not her son, because Achashveirish wasn't worthy of having his seed in Klal Yisroel.

Thank you Goodmorning for these references!


That is not my reading of it.

R' Yudan was an Amora quoted in the Medrash Rabba; the Eitz Yosef is the commentary of a 19th century Acharon on Medrash Rabba. He doesn't have the authority to argue with R' Yudan.

I think R' Yudan is saying that Daryaveish was conceived and born before this plan of Haman's; recall that there were a good five years between Esther's marriage to Achashverosh and Haman's plan. After Achashverosh's collaboration with Haman, she no longer had any children with him (and used a moch to prevent pregnancy).

And in fact these are the words of the Eitz Yosef:
כן הוזקק רבי ברבי סימון לומר כי מה שלא מצינו לה בנים אחרים זולת דריוש לפי שמשמשת במוך היתה.
That according to R' Yudan, we do not find any other children of Esther besides Daryavesh. That is, וּמִשָּׁעָה שֶׁהִפִּילָה שׁוּב לֹא יָלְדָה -- from when she miscarried, she did not give birth again, but previously, she had given birth.
Back to top

amother




Blush
 

Post Thu, Feb 25 2021, 5:22 pm
Ahh.. that last piece sheds light on the other part. I understood it to mean that he did not have any seed through Esther because he was a rasha from beginning to end, meaning that even though he only did the decree after Haman approached him, he was a rasha even before.
Back to top

amother




Blush
 

Post Thu, Feb 25 2021, 5:31 pm
I just came across a timeline of the events of Purim. According to this timeline, Esther becomes queen in 3399, the Purim victory happened in 3405, Achashveirosh dies a year later , and Daryaveish II succeeds him, and Daryavesh allows construction of the BH to resume in 3408.
If this is correct, it means that Daryavesh was, at most, 8 years old when he allowed the Jews to resume construction.
Back to top
  Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next  Last >> Recent Topics

Page 9 of 10 View latest: 24h 48h 72h


Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Purim

Related Topics Replies Last Post
ISO Small hall/simcha room to make bar mitzva (Monsey)
by amother
0 Wed, Apr 21 2021, 10:23 pm View last post
High end simcha halls
by amother
12 Wed, Apr 14 2021, 3:49 pm View last post
Sarah Shaindel Goldwasser Free Purim course
by nech770
1 Fri, Apr 09 2021, 11:00 am View last post
Looking to send fruit/ nut platter in Lakewood for a simcha
by amother
3 Wed, Apr 07 2021, 12:32 pm View last post
Just for fun -- what Purim shtick made you laugh? 6 Wed, Mar 10 2021, 4:12 pm View last post