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Purim is a simcha? Isn't that selfish?
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amother




OP
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 4:33 pm
bigsis144 wrote:
How dare we celebrate Pesach?

When I think about how many thousands of Jewish people died, including innocent infants, during 210 years in Mitzrayim... and then how many people died in the Midbar before they reached Eretz Yisrael, so not even that generation ever had a true happy ending...

Oy...


Well, tbh we suffer plenty in all the preparations for Pesach, and seder for me is always a labor of love because I'm passing out in exhaustion before kadesh.

But, yes, I guess that doesn't disprove my point, only strengthens it.

Purim is all about the simchah...that is a central theme of Purim (vs. Pesach, which has simcha aspects, but it is not the primary or imho central theme of Pesach). So, I think the comparison falls short.

I'm sure you mean well, and don't get me wrong, I'm not on a PR campaign to make Purim into 9 Av (heaven forbid). I'm sitting here in my home doing my housework--including happily preparing for Purim, and no one even knows what I'm thinking now or that I bring tissues to megillah every year.
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avrahamama




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 4:42 pm
Esther had a remarkable and painful olam hazeh I can only imagine her spectacular olam haba.

At one point in the megillah esther herself tells mordechai to clean up, stop wearing sackcloth and ashes and make himself presentable. She was alluding to the fact that his misery was only bringing down more misery. She was a mirror to the world and was lauded for making everyone feel as if she was one of them. It was her purity and lack of arrogance that made her this way. She wanted the Jewish world to be bsimcha and praise Hashem so that Hashem would rain down more bracha.

Vashti has no redeeming qualities. She is a rasha bat rasha ben rasha ben rasha. She hails from a lineage responsible for destroying our beit hamikdasb. She also wanted to ensure that Jews were debased and demoralized by stripping then of their dignity and of keeping shabbat. She wanted to ensure that the best hamikdash would never be rebuilt. She refused to show up naked only because she wanted to challenge her loser husband. Otherwise there was not a shred of modesty, humility or dignity to her. She may have been a woman with a "tragic" ending, wicked woman are just as dangerous as wicked men.
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amother




Aquamarine
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 4:45 pm
avrahamama wrote:
Esther had a remarkable and painful olam hazeh I can only imagine her spectacular olam haba.

At one point in the megillah esther herself tells mordechai to clean up, stop wearing sackcloth and ashes and make himself presentable. She was alluding to the fact that his misery was only bringing down more misery. She was a mirror to the world and was lauded for making everyone feel as if she was one of them. It was her purity and lack of arrogance that made her this way. She wanted the Jewish world to be bsimcha and praise Hashem so that Hashem would rain down more bracha.

Vashti has no redeeming qualities. She is a rasha bat rasha ben rasha ben rasha. She hails from a lineage responsible for destroying our beit hamikdasb. She also wanted to ensure that Jews were debased and demoralized by stripping then of their dignity and of keeping shabbat. She wanted to ensure that the best hamikdash would never be rebuilt. She refused to show up naked only because she wanted to challenge her loser husband. Otherwise there was not a shred of modesty, humility or dignity to her. She may have been a woman with a "tragic" ending, wicked woman are just as dangerous as wicked men.


Vashti regularly went naked in public, she didn't want to go because she got a tail and spots and was embarrassed.
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amother




Babypink
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 4:48 pm
Esther had a remarkable and painful olam hazeh I can only imagine her spectacular olam haba.

Thanks for that perspective. It always bothered me also
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amother




Powderblue
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 5:02 pm
Wasn’t Esther buried next to mordechai in the end?
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Frumme




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 5:07 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
You make a point if it's what she wanted, that one doesn't need to feel "guilty" or "selfish" for being so b'simchah on Purim.

It's still hard for me to accept that tbh we on a whole generally don't consider and really appreciate what she sacrificed.


I don't think she wanted it to be the focus. She didn't want people to mull over the idea of her getting continuously raped, being alone in the palace, never eating more than nuts and fruit. It was a sad life. But she did not want us to dwell on that. She didn't want another 9th of Av. She wanted us to be happy, rejoice in that we were saved, because being b'simcha brings down blessings in a way that being sad cannot.

To me, it's similar to how today people have "celebrations of life." People don't want others to be sad at their passing, so they ask for their family to get together and think about "all of the good times," not the bad times. Because in the end, that's how most people want to be remembered. You don't want your loved ones to think of you and be sad, you want them to be happy to have had you in their lives.

So Esther had a "positivity bias." Instead of dwelling on the worst, she made lemonade out of her lemons. King Darius, her son, was good to Jews and led to the lifting of the ban to rebuild the beis hamikdash.
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LovesHashem




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 5:12 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
I think she meant Vashti, not Esther.
Yes, Vashti was evil and her punishment was rightfully earned. She tortured her jewish maids, forced them to work all naked, didn't let them keep shabbos. A true rushanta.


Midah kineged Midah.

Vashti was forced to come down naked during the party.
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amother




OP
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 5:18 pm
Frumme wrote:
I don't think she wanted it to be the focus. She didn't want people to mull over the idea of her getting continuously raped, being alone in the palace, never eating more than nuts and fruit. It was a sad life. But she did not want us to dwell on that. She didn't want another 9th of Av. She wanted us to be happy, rejoice in that we were saved, because being b'simcha brings down blessings in a way that being sad cannot.

To me, it's similar to how today people have "celebrations of life." People don't want others to be sad at their passing, so they ask for their family to get together and think about "all of the good times," not the bad times. Because in the end, that's how most people want to be remembered. You don't want your loved ones to think of you and be sad, you want them to be happy to have had you in their lives.

So Esther had a "positivity bias." Instead of dwelling on the worst, she made lemonade out of her lemons. King Darius, her son, was good to Jews and led to the lifting of the ban to rebuild the beis hamikdash.


I see what you're saying. you're totally right about being bsimchah.

Whether it's the focus or not, it's real. It really happened, and the Torah, both directly in the megillah and via meforshim, didn't hide it. We're supposed to know. I can't believe we're just supposed to shake it off and pretend it didn't happen in the name of "positivity bias". My gut says that there is something in between her just not wanting to be "Debbie Downer" and "making it 9 Av" which is why we know what she went through. Something I think should still bother us in a motivating way about the fact that it wasn't redemption for Esther, even if we don't sit in ashes and sack cloth over it.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 5:36 pm
Apologies in advance if I make things worse...

Everything is tragic. Every day. Every celebration.

Every historic event we celebrate has an element of suffering. Hannukah was a war, to some extent a civil war. People were dying. The nation was being torn apart. Ultimately, we defeated the Greeks only to lose to the Romans.

The reasons for celebrating Tu B'Av are pretty depressing if we think about them too hard, mostly along the lines of "we thought things were the worst, but they are only bad, wheeeee" (but hey. chocolates). Lag B'Omer is more or less the same.

And then there's just plain daily life. There's always something awful happening somewhere on earth. Heck, if you live in a city, there's probably someone suffering something awful within shouting distance. A miscarriage, or a bad relationship, or poverty, or addiction, or....

You get my point.

I'm not trying to say that life is awful. I like life. I think life is beautiful. But life is a beautiful thing against a backdrop of ugly. Always. Yes, in the Purim story too. Purim can't have a happy ending for everyone because nothing in life ever does.

But that doesn't make the Purim story less happy or miraculous. You have to compare it to the rest of the imperfect, often-tragic world.

And like others said, to honor Esther's memory the way she wanted it to be honored, with a party. Come on, how cool would it be to know that in over 2,000 years, the best party all year would be the one in celebration of the awesome things you did? Better that than people mourning your sad life any day.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 5:38 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I see what you're saying. you're totally right about being bsimchah.

Whether it's the focus or not, it's real. It really happened, and the Torah, both directly in the megillah and via meforshim, didn't hide it. We're supposed to know. I can't believe we're just supposed to shake it off and pretend it didn't happen in the name of "positivity bias". My gut says that there is something in between her just not wanting to be "Debbie Downer" and "making it 9 Av" which is why we know what she went through. Something I think should still bother us in a motivating way about the fact that it wasn't redemption for Esther, even if we don't sit in ashes and sack cloth over it.

I don't think it's shaking it off, to not make that the focus. Or pretending it didn't happen. Of course it happened, it's right there in the story.

Maybe I should have led with this, but - what would you do differently? To remember it?
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amother




Bisque
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 5:41 pm
I don't know if Esther would have wanted herself to be regarded as a martyr and worthy of this level of sadness. I think (IMHO) that she consciously chose this sacrifice and was happy to have played such a pivotal role-The famous quote that goes 'Perhaps for this moment you were created'. Each of us in our own lives have been put into this world for a purpose. Jewish history is riddled with terrible things and tragedies. We are a nation that has suffered much and continues to do so.
However, we are supposed to rise above and find meaning in our lives. Everything has meaning. I also think we all know about sacrifice. We sacrifice when we give birth to children, sacrifice to bring our children up, sacrifice when we put others before ourselves.
As a G-d fearing Jew we are supposed to put Him first and us last. We have all had to make hard choices in life, and have hard choices foisted upon us. How many of us don't know what it's like to lose a close loved one? How many of us have cried over a child that for some reason was never meant to be? We have to have faith in Someone bigger than ourselves and that we are a cog in the machine of the universe. And that someday soon our questions will be answered.
I think every Yom Tov has sadness as there have been so many tragedies throughout history. But it is our job to rise above the sadness and transend it. We have to focus on the positive. Think of the words of 'Vehi Shemomda'. We have Someone watching out for us and Who has helped us throughout and continues to do so.
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amother




OP
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 5:46 pm
ora_43 wrote:
I don't think it's shaking it off, to not make that the focus. Or pretending it didn't happen. Of course it happened, it's right there in the story.

Maybe I should have led with this, but - what would you do differently? To remember it?


I think I would want to consider those for whom it's not clear they are in a personal galus to save the jews, etc....are freed from their galus.

not judged, not discarded, not ignored. I think by virtue of Esther being moichel her entire life and self respect as a daughter of Israel, other daughters of Israel should not have to be--especially those in a less strictly imposed galus ie. not via the decree of a basar v'dom king.

I think I'd want to find ways to be even more compassionate and not just be ok with others giving up everything while the world rejoices around them--certainly if they weren't moichel like Esther was.
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cbsp




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 5:47 pm
amother [ Gray ] wrote:
Obviously I meant people think of Vashti as evil - not Esther!- and I don't see her that way. I have never heard of all the stories posters are telling now, of how she made her maids clean naked etc. I'm guessing these are midrashim and not actual fact.



What facts are you basing your perspective of Vashti on?

Why do you need to see the granddaughter of Nevuchadnetzar as a victim?
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sequoia




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 5:47 pm
Nobody grew a tail, ok?
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amother




Taupe
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 5:58 pm
Esther and Mordechai themselves wrote the megillah. THEY instructed us to rejoice on this day.
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GreenEyes26




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 6:21 pm
I’m really shocked at how many posters take misrashim so literally.
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amother




Lawngreen
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 6:46 pm
amother [ Gray ] wrote:
Yes, Esther always seems such a tragic figure to me. Pretty much raped by the king, forced to live her life in solitude, among a culture not her own. A hostage all her life.

And I know people like to view her as evil, but I always thought Vashti is tragic too. Poor woman, denied even the most basic rights, punished for daring to have a say.

It was not a good time or place to be a woman.
'

No, no, no. Vashti was evil. Don't get all feminist up in here.

Like someone posted above, everything she got was midda k'neged midda. She was haughty and felt she was above Achashverosh, and she forced Jewish women to work on Shabbos and tortured them to disobey the Torah.

She was 100% evil and should never be viewed with sympathy.
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SuperWify




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 6:47 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
Vashti regularly went naked in public, she didn't want to go because she got a tail and spots and was embarrassed.


I heard she didn’t actually get pimples and a tail she hallucinated that she did as she was preparing to go and so she refused to leave.
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causemommysaid




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 6:50 pm
sequoia wrote:
Nobody grew a tail, ok?


Whaaaat???? My mind is blown.


Not even a few pimples?
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amother




Gray
 

Post Sun, Feb 21 2021, 6:57 pm
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
'

No, no, no. Vashti was evil. Don't get all feminist up in here.

.


Not going to debate midrashim here, or even how evil Vashti was or was not - but sorry, you will not tell me to stop being a feminist.

I will get 'all feminist' here and elsewhere, thank you.
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