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When is the last time you read your kids “McElligot's Pool”
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Poll

When is the last time you read your kids “McElligot's Pool”
Its our favorite book  
 0%  [ 1 ]
Today  
 0%  [ 1 ]
This week  
 1%  [ 2 ]
My kids are older, but we used to read it regularly  
 9%  [ 11 ]
This month  
 0%  [ 1 ]
Never  
 22%  [ 25 ]
What is "McElligot's Pool"?  
 63%  [ 70 ]
Total Votes : 111


amother




Babypink
 

Post Thu, Mar 04 2021, 10:50 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Shakespeare and Dickens are in the public domain, so anyone can publish them who wants. The estates of Shakespeare and Dickens have no say. I don't think that the Merchant of Venice in particular should be taught in high school given the obvious antisemitism of the Shylock character.

I'd be happy to see a lot of Roald Dahl disappear. I certainly haven't shown my kids Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, but they've seen James Bond movies, and even Willy Wonka.


Off topic- but why not chitty chitty bang bang?
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youngishbear




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Mar 04 2021, 11:07 pm
enneamom wrote:
There are many amazing books that I've yet to discover.

Apparently, there are now six less of them. Including a book that won Dr. Seuss his first Caldecott honor, and the only title he ever illustrated in watercolor. You should check out the illustrations; they are works of art.

Where will the state of education in the country be left, after the liberals are done with their snipping and pruning? Will they ever be done?


I should hope that general secular education would change over time, as language evolves, history extends further into the future, and scientific discoveries change what is known about the mysteries of the universe.

It isn't the Torah, after all.
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amother




Babypink
 

Post Thu, Mar 04 2021, 11:25 pm
youngishbear wrote:
I should hope that general secular education would change over time, as language evolves, history extends further into the future, and scientific discoveries change what is known about the mysteries of the universe.

It isn't the Torah, after all.


First of all, you are a very talented writer. That just needed to be said.

But even as history extends further into the future, is there ever an excuse or a logical reason to try and blot out the history that has already been made? Especially in art and literature. These books are examples of their times.
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tigerwife




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Mar 04 2021, 11:38 pm
amother [ Babypink ] wrote:
Off topic- but why not chitty chitty bang bang?


Besides for that terrifying child-snatcher?
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amother




Crimson
 

Post Fri, Mar 05 2021, 7:10 am
enneamom wrote:
What a shame. It looks like a great book.

https://seussblog.wordpress.co.....pool/

Quote:
SUMMARY:

Once again we are taken on a roller coaster ride of amazing imagination with Marco, from And To Think I Saw It On Mulberry Street. This time we see him sitting by McElligot’s Pool with fishing pole in hand. The pool is small and full of junk, but even after an adult farmer tells him he is being a fool, Marco continues to expect fish.

” ‘ Hmmm…’ answered Marco,
‘It may be you’re right.
I’ve been here three hours
Without one single bite.
There might be no fish…
‘But, again,
Well, there might!’ “

He explains that the pool might connect to an underground brook and under State Highway Two-Hundred-and-Three and under Sneeden’s Hotel and all the way out to the sea!

Then Marco starts to imagine all of the fantastical fish that could be out there on their way to McElligot’s Pool such as a fish with a checkboard belly or a fish made of strawberry jelly or even a sea horse (that actually has a horses head) and a fish that is partly a cow. Also, fish from the tropics and Eskimo fish and an eel with two heads.

The list goes on and on, including a fish with a terrible grouch (that looks an awful lot like the Grinch) and some acrobatic fish from the Circus that make a tower. Finally Marco announces:

“Oh, the sea is a so full of a number of fish,
If a fellow is patient, he might get his wish!”

And in a page that mimics the first page with the farmer looking on at Marco and the little pool Marco tells the farmer:

“And that’s why I think
That I’m not such a fool
When I sit here and fish
In McElligot’s Pool!”

ABOUT:

Once again we have a child taking something simple and mundane and turning it into something brilliant and beautiful with his imagination. And once again the adult considers it ridiculous and cannot see with the child’s creative mind.



This image is great, not only because it illustrates my point about the adult calling Marco a fool, but it also shows the animal observer. In the little tree by the pool there is a bird. This bird is our way into the story. It is seeing what we see and silently watching the action of the story. It is a pretty fun game to try and spot the animal observer that pops up in almost every single one of Seuss’ books.

HISTORY:

Another early trademark of Seuss is found in this book. Some biographers consider this one of his first “bestiary books” meaning a book in which Seuss creates made up beasts and gives them odd names and fantastical illustrations. In this book, like in There’s a Wocket in My Pocket, or One Fish Two Fish Red Fish Blue Fish, Seuss goes through a menagerie of strange creatures. He has yet to give them unique names at this point, which he will do later in books like On Beyond Zebra and If I Ran the Zoo.



The dedication is to Seuss’ father and reads:

This book is dedicated to
T.R. Geisel of Springfield, Mass.,
The World’s Greatest Authority
on Blackfish, Fiddler Crabs and Deegel Trout

The “deegel trout” is a private joke referencing some of the Geisel’s more unsuccessful fishing trips when his father would purchase trout from the Deegel hatchery and pass them off as their catch.

The book was clearly inspired by childhood fishing trips with his father, but the brilliant color and beautiful illustrations were inspired by some of the scenery that Seuss and his wife, Helen, saw on their many trips abroad.



This is the only book that Seuss illustrated in watercolor. Sadly the budget only allowed alternate pairs of facing pages to be printed in their full brilliant color. Seuss decided after this book that children prefer flat bold colors, but he was also constantly worried that his art would look like a comic book.

Considering Seuss is my favorite artist, as well as children’s author, I find is very interest to look at these amazing paintings. Each one could stand alone in a frame on your wall and be considered art and yet here they all are, printed much smaller than their original size, and all crammed together in a children’s book. They are more reminiscent of the art you would find in The Secret Art of Dr. Seuss rather than the simple bold black outlined images you find in most of his books.

Here is an example of a page from McElligot’s Pool versus a piece in The Secret Art of Dr. Seuss:



(this is actually a more gray and black version of a page from McElligot’s Pool)



(from The Secret Art of Dr. Seuss)

They are both done with watercolor instead of the oil or acrylic that become the habit of his children’s book illustrations. They also lack the bold black outline that he was so afraid would resemble a comic book page. The colors are also much duller and the shading is more apparent.

He received a Junior Library Guild selection for the illustrations in this book and also landed his first Caldecott honor. The JLG website describes the Caldecott Medal as such:

“The Caldecott Medal was named in honor of nineteenth-century English illustrator Randolph Caldecott. It is awarded annually by the Association for Library Service to Children, a division of the American Library Association, to the artist of the most distinguished American picture book for children.”

_________________________

As usual there is more than one cover to be found. Originally the image at the top of this post was a dust jacket that covered the green cover below, but now the image on the dusk jacket is printed directly onto the cover with no actual dust jacket. The red spine book shown below is a very rare publication.



FAVORITE QUOTE:

“Oh, the sea is so full of a number of fish,
If a fellow is patient, he might get his wish!”

I am not always a patient person and this is just a nice little reminder that if you are a patient person you could get what you want. I love that he says “might” so many times throughout the book to show that it’s not necessarily guaranteed, but it is also not necessarily impossible.

FAVORITE IMAGE:

It is honestly hard for me to pick a favorite image from this book, because I really feel this book shows off his illustrations the best with such brilliant and eclectic color and imagination. But I think the image that shows that off the most is this one.



I also enjoy the New York Times statement that it is very characteristic of Dr. Seuss to have the worm “wrapping itself around a hook instead of being pierced by it.”

Thanks for reading,
Jack St. Rebor



Quote:


This is the only book that Seuss illustrated in watercolor


I'm the one who talked about a high school teacher who read this to our class and how the lesson really impacted me. It really is a great book with a beautiful message about how much richness there is to be found when you delve beneath the surface. How sad that it's going out of print, though I suppose not surprising when the people who pushed for it are not known for their critical thinking skills, to say the least.

Try to get ahold of it, if you can. It's a lovely book. And yes, I've been telling people that for many years, not just since yesterday. It's why I'm anon, a lot of people irl have heard me on my soapbox about how this book is a vastly underrated gem.
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Rappel




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Mar 05 2021, 7:16 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Given the utter consternation over the decision not to publish it anymore, when is the last time you read your kids “McElligot's Pool”


This week. My FIL bought us everything Seuss ever wrote a few months ago, when the kids got into the cat in the hat and one fish two fish.

I feel like I would maybe set aside these books for our retirement now!
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amother




Brunette
 

Post Fri, Mar 05 2021, 7:31 am
amother [ Babypink ] wrote:
Off topic- but why not chitty chitty bang bang?


Yes, why? It's my favourite movie from my childhood!
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Simple1




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Mar 05 2021, 7:36 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Given the utter consternation over the decision not to publish it anymore, when is the last time you read your kids “McElligot's Pool”


The answer might be different if you asked about the Mulberry Street book which is more popular.
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miami85




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Mar 05 2021, 8:44 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Would you care if a children's book referred to the K-kes, and included an image of a man with a long hooked nose and peyas, fondling money?

To the Inuit people, its the same thing.


I don't think it is the same thing.

Eskimo is a language of upper North America and so is Inuit, it's a different language, different peoples. I think the offensive part is the lumping them together assuming that they are the same people. I think a more apt analogy is "Indian" to describe Cherokee, Iroquois, Apache, Shawnee etc. It's like asking someone from Albany "So do you know so-and-so in NYC?" It's an oversimplification that is insensitive.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Mar 05 2021, 9:35 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Would you care if a children's book referred to the K-kes, and included an image of a man with a long hooked nose and peyas, fondling money?

To the Inuit people, its the same thing.


Why is this not getting more press?
No one would use the N word anymore. But how many people know that the Inuits (is that really the best term? Isn't that just one tribe?) are just as offended?
And AFAIK, K was NEVER used in polite conversation, it was always derogatory.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Mar 05 2021, 9:36 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Shakespeare and Dickens are in the public domain, so anyone can publish them who wants. The estates of Shakespeare and Dickens have no say. I don't think that the Merchant of Venice in particular should be taught in high school given the obvious antisemitism of the Shylock character.

I'd be happy to see a lot of Roald Dahl disappear. I certainly haven't shown my kids Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, but they've seen James Bond movies, and even Willy Wonka.


Aren't Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and Bond Ian Fleming?


Last edited by PinkFridge on Fri, Mar 05 2021, 9:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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miami85




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Mar 05 2021, 9:36 am
amother [ Babypink ] wrote:
Off topic- but why not chitty chitty bang bang?


Not sure what is offensive about Chitty Chitty Bang Bang considering I thought for years the country was "Bulgaria" and it's really "Vulgaria"

I think it's more prudent to study how misconceptions developed throughout history and learn sequence of events because MOST of European History is: they hated them; and these were at war with those; and revolutions and new ways of thinking that were right/wrong etc.

Kids don't really learn this or Civics to understand how laws are made and why the Bill of Rights are so. We have to learn about why things WERE to understand HOW and WHY they are like this NOW.

We don't stop teaching about the Holocaust because it's offensive, we teach it so that we know it existed. Slavery is an uncomfortable topic, Segregation is an uncomfortable topic but understanding the history of penal colonies and plantations and why it was important for the South.

Look, my family is about to consider hiring a person from a different country to take care of my mother. This is something that is "done". Once we are hiring her shouldn't we have some sort of "guarantee" that she is going to stay and do her job? Obviously WE are going to treat her as part of our home and treat her properly. However, once upon a time there was a misguided way of thinking that "clothes make the man" and if you don't have clothes--then what are you? They didn't even speak the same language but they wanted reliable help that they could identify. Now we understand the concept of different cultures, we are not self-centered and obtuse cultures anymore we look outward to understand other people and that there are other ways of being smart that don't involved clothing and appearances. This is evolution of thought and humanity.

I love this line from Men In Black
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.
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Amelia Bedelia




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Mar 05 2021, 1:45 pm
https://ibb.co/5vkLRF4
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Mar 05 2021, 1:53 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Aren't Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and Bond Ian Fleming?


Yes. But Roald Dahl wrote the screenplay for the movie.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Mar 05 2021, 2:15 pm
miami85 wrote:
Not sure what is offensive about Chitty Chitty Bang Bang considering I thought for years the country was "Bulgaria" and it's really "Vulgaria"


The child catcher with a big pointy nose and long black coat and hat are widely seen as an antisemitic stereotype. Apparently that's pure movie, apologies to Ian Fleming. As one commentatory points out, "Dahl sets children up as the undesirable race and then cobbles together Jewish stereotypes to hunt them out. Really? To what end?"

I think that we should continue to examine earlier works that include problematic characterizations, but as mature adults who can understand them.

That doesn't mean I want to read my child a book that reduces Asians to people with "slanty eyes" eating "bowls of rice." Or show them images of people of color drawn to look like chimps. They're too young for nuances like that, or to understand historical context, etc.

The Seuss Estate recognized that while these images were once acceptable, they no longer are, and keeping them in publication taints the Seuss image. I strongly suspect that had the books been popular, they would have been edited (in fact, Mulberry Street was duing Seuss' lifetime, as he recognized that it was a bit racist by then-standards).
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Sat, Mar 06 2021, 10:20 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Yes. But Roald Dahl wrote the screenplay for the movie.

Ah. I didn't know that.
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miami85




 
 
 
 

Post Sat, Mar 06 2021, 11:09 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
And one that you never bothered to purchase or read when it was widely available.


I actually remember really liking Scrambled Eggs Super and On Beyond Zebra as a kid, I have most of Dr. Seuss' books, I never thought these would be in jeopardy or I would have.
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miami85




 
 
 
 

Post Sat, Mar 06 2021, 11:17 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
The child catcher with a big pointy nose and long black coat and hat are widely seen as an antisemitic stereotype. Apparently that's pure movie, apologies to Ian Fleming. As one commentatory points out, "Dahl sets children up as the undesirable race and then cobbles together Jewish stereotypes to hunt them out. Really? To what end?"

I think that we should continue to examine earlier works that include problematic characterizations, but as mature adults who can understand them.

That doesn't mean I want to read my child a book that reduces Asians to people with "slanty eyes" eating "bowls of rice." Or show them images of people of color drawn to look like chimps. They're too young for nuances like that, or to understand historical context, etc.

The Seuss Estate recognized that while these images were once acceptable, they no longer are, and keeping them in publication taints the Seuss image. I strongly suspect that had the books been popular, they would have been edited (in fact, Mulberry Street was duing Seuss' lifetime, as he recognized that it was a bit racist by then-standards).


The book of Chitty chitty Bang Bang is completely different from the book, and perhaps there is a reason that most villains have "semitic features" because for most of history Jews were hated by most of the world--halacha hi b'yadua. I mean look at Gargamel from the Smurfs. But I dont stop liking the smurfs because of the history of Jews, I would respect someone who didn't want their kids to read it, but I don't call for it to be banned, I learn about the history and how stereotypes developed and understand why they are not liked. Chinese have unique eyes, why is drawing them offensive? Asians eat lots of rice, how is that offensive? So instead we take out any culturally diverse people so all the people in Dr. Seuss are white like "Sally and I"? How is that better? There are tons of political cartoons that caricaturize cultures and they exist in the NY Times and other publications. Is the animated version of Mulan "offensive" because Mulan has a pet dragon played by a black man? (I like Mulan)
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sushilover




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Mar 07 2021, 12:46 am
If you really believe that a stereotype drawing of an Asian or tribal African is enough to negatively influence your kid, I seriously don't understand how you allow your children to read any fairy tale or nursery rhyme. You can find something offensive about so many of them!
Or maybe you do censor fairy tales?
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amother




Goldenrod
 

Post Sun, Mar 07 2021, 1:06 am
Isn't there a difference between a stereotype and a negative stereotype?

I don't think I'd be offended if someone drew a Jew at the kotel wearing a kippah and tefillin, a British woman with an umbrella on London Bridge, or a New Yorker in Manhattan eating a hot dog. The fact is that among many of the broad cultural practices in Asia, eating rice and having certain recognizable facial features is common.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I wouldn't find it offensive to portray Black culture with colorful fabric and dreadlocks - even though of course there are plenty of Blacks who don't dress that way, and plenty of people from other cultures who do.

Portraying a Black person as a bumbling fool, primitive or subhuman ch"v is of course terrible, on par with the hook-nosed Jew or savage "Indian".

I did a geography report on the Inuit in elementary school, and yes, as part of their fascinating way of surviving in their environment and respecting and not wasting any part of nature, they did wear the stereotypical furry hoods (for reasons I explained). I honestly wonder if my report would have been considered offensive today.

If I want my kids to have a broader perspective on any subgroup, I'll have them read more about them. We definitely had some great award-winning books on Asians as kids, can't remember the names right now.
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