NYT Article about NYC Yeshivas not teaching basics

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DrMom

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:07 am

vintagebknyc wrote:

I'm a journalist. I couldn't even get hired at YWN if I misplaced apostrophes. (And in my job, I do hiring. If a cover letter has grammatical or spelling errors, it's toast.)

Sadly, you probably could.

Mommyg8

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:08 am

SixOfWands wrote:

I disagree. Vehemently. In the business world, were I to routinely misplace apostrophes or use bad grammar, no one would utilize my services. Nor would I use their services. I need to work with people who communicate clearly and effectively, and that includes proper grammar.

I don't hold people to the same standards on social media, where we use the vernacular and don't proofread our work in the same way that we do in business.

There's nothing to disagree with, lol. I'm stating a fact. Business owners can do very well with very basic English skills in the heimish world. If anything, using fancy words in an email will be a turn off.

Obviously the situation is very different if you are an attorney or similar service.

I was referring to running a business which requires a very different set of skills.

#BestBubby

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:09 am

SixOfWands wrote:

If you had Black Privilege you could use all the bad grammar, spelling you want.

Insisting on proper grammar and spelling is racist, you know!

They even made up a NAME that allows Black People to use bad English - EBONICS (Black English).

Last edited by #BestBubby on Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:15 am; edited 1 time in total

SixOfWands

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:11 am

#BestBubby wrote:

If you had Black Privilege you could use all the bad grammar, spelling you want.

Insisting on proper grammar and spelling is racist, you know!

WADR, my friends of color and business associates are able to write perfectly well. Your assumption that they cannot is what is racist.

#BestBubby

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:13 am

SixOfWands wrote:

WADR, my friends of color and business associates are able to write perfectly well. Your assumption that they cannot is what is racist.

I am not saying that black people cannot speak/write proper English.

I am claiming that people of color would never be fired for poor English skills or the
employer would be accused of racism.

You know it's true, SOW, even though you will never admit it.

amother

Gray

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:14 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Right. So I did mention that I am in the business world. Obviously certain professions - such as journalism and law - will require higher level English skills. But the typical business owner really does not need high level English at all.

Maybe. But it does not look good when one doesn't know the difference between 'me' and 'I' or when someone misuses apostrophes.

If you are a successful business owner, no one cares. But if you are working in lower management, then it isn't going to reflect well on the business if your emails are full of errors.

As for Chabad. I have many relatives who are shluchim. They write posts on Facebook and those posts are full of errors. When a well-respected rabbi or rebbetzin writes a post full of errors, it detracts from them, at least in my opinion. These are native English speakers, and on the whole, their community doesn't realize that they didn't study normal English at school. It looks like they are uneducated.

amother

Gray

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:17 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Not everyone owns their own business.
Owning a successful business requires a whole skill set that the average person often does not possess.
People here keep talking about owning successful businesses, as if everyone who doesn't get a secular education is a wealthy businessman. Right.

#BestBubby

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:18 am

I find spelling errors in SECULAR BOOKS quite often.

Words that are homophones like your/you're of/'ve there/their.

Publishers are relying on computers to check spelling and grammar but the
computers cannot catch these type of errors and I see them in published books.

amother

Gray

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:20 am

DrMom wrote:

Sadly, you probably could.

Yes. I never read that site, but a week or two ago I saw a thread with a link to an article there.
I opened the link, and was shocked to read an article with basic mistakes like 'would of' instead of 'would have'. Unbelievable.
Couldn't they find writers who know basic grammar? I've never come across such mistakes on a secular news site.

amother

Gray

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:27 am

#BestBubby wrote:

I read a secular book every two weeks, and come across such mistakes rarely. Maybe one or two mistakes in every other book (considering each book is minimum 70,000 words, that's not a lot).

In any case, if a secular book is full of spelling errors, of course it detracts from its professionalism.

#BestBubby

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:27 am

People, are you aware there is a non-jewish trend called "UNSCHOOLING"?

Children are not formally taught ANYTHING - until the children ASK to be taught.

Some kids don't learn to read until 9 or older when they realize they "need" reading.

Ditto for math.

And science, history, etc.

Kids choose to learn whatever they are interested in.

Parents say if the Children want to go to college they can "catch up" in a year!

Sounds familiar, hmmm?

avrahamama

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:30 am

#BestBubby wrote:

It's a homeschooling trend and it's fabulous. I wish I had enough people in my sviva to be able to do it. It's more than what you described and it aligns more with what children are developmentally ready for. But education across the board doesn't take into account what children are developmentally ready for. Not even yeshivot. :-/

amother

Gray

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:31 am

SixOfWands wrote:

I'm wondering when people have the time to provide secular education to their kids. My kids (who do receive a decent secular education) are in school from a little after 8 until 4 in later elementary school, 5 in high school. 45 minutes to get home, an hour and 15 minutes to have a snack, have dinner, and shower puts it to 7 pm. At least 2 hours of homework and studying makes it 9 pm. So you add 2 hours of secular studies on top of that (11 pm), so that your kids have no time at all to do anything else?

This. Even if your kids have little or no homework (as some here claim), most kids don't want to come home after a long day to be homeschooled.
To say nothing of the fact that most moms have enough on their plates in the evenings without providing an entire secular education in 45 minutes.
Reading these threads, you would think all these moms are well rested, with cleaning ladies and cooks, and when their boys come home, they have enough time to sit with each and teach them math and English at the appropriate age level.
Maybe some women are like that. And maybe some women work f/t and are superwomen and can do it AND teach their kids too. And maybe some kids are patient and eager to learn after a long day at school.
Not most families I know though.

SixOfWands

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:31 am

#BestBubby wrote:

Not only do I not "know" its true, I know it to be false.

SixOfWands

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:33 am

#BestBubby wrote:

Please provide a scan of 10 in mainstream books. Given that you find such errors so frequently, that should be quite easy for you.

moonstone

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:33 am

nchr wrote:

This opinion piece is so offensive. Plus it doesn't represent the actual opinions of the majority of parents. It's just rishes. And publishing it in a widely read paper is even worse. It's horrible.

I find it offensive that huge swaths of American Jewish men (and many women) are functionally illiterate in English.

number

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:42 am

avrahamama wrote:

Same here! I follow the unschooling movement pretty closely. If I were in a position to homeschool I would definitely do it that way. I did it when the schools were closed during the pandemic but that was only 6 months. Not enough to get into it.

#BestBubby

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:59 am

moonstone wrote:

I find it offensive that huge swaths of American Jewish men (and many women) are functionally illiterate in English.

40% of AMERICAN (non-jewish) Adults are illiterate and lacking basic math skills -
many are public school graduates.

#BestBubby

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:03 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Please provide a scan of 10 in mainstream books. Given that you find such errors so frequently, that should be quite easy for you.

Since I got internet a few years ago, I stopped reading books (blush).

But unless publishing improved dramatically in the last few years it is still happening.

Another poster also stated she finds grammatical/spelling errors in secular books.

amother

Orange

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:05 pm

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

I wrote about some things I've taught my kids. Perhaps people read my post and pictured me sitting down every day to teach my boys. Not at all. The only thing I formally taught them was the times table, and that I insisted they learn for their own good if they hadn't picked it up by age 10. Formally meaning they practiced for 10-20 minutes after school and I bought workbooks for them to practice and I tested them. I rewarded them accordingly. Everything else they mostly picked up by themselves and I helped them along here and there. It's not a daily studying routine. It's mostly putting things like maps, flashcards, toy clocks, puzzles, etc. into their playing environment from as young as age 2 and using their natural curiosity to help them learn.
I also taught all of my kids alef beis by age 2 and those who were interested, to read Hebrew before kindergarten.
Every one of my kids learned addition and subtraction naturally without formal teaching, at age 5. I think that's pretty normal for kids. I know my kids arent the only ones because their friends did the same. My daughter that age figured out super quickly that when she had two dimes and a nickel what she can buy at the candy store and how much change she'll have for next time. It's not beyond kids to pick things up quickly on their own, rather than spending hours on it in class, practicing and waiting till the other 20 students finally understand it.
I have written this before, but I strongly feel my boys calculate quicker and more accurately in their heads because they weren't taught to write down math problems. Later on when they were much older, I showed them that if they wanted to figure out numbers on paper, they can carry, borrow, do long division, fractions, etc. We had time during lockdown for these things.
In any case, skills and knowledge is acquired over time, not necessarily every day in a 4 hour period in a classroom.
My kids would Never be able to supplement the limudei kodesh they learn in yeshiva in the same way. It is not possible when they are immersed in an environment of Torah and yiras shomayim. You cannot supplement hours of that anywhere else.

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