"White lie" re giyur status on shul membership application?
Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

View latest: 24h 48h 72h



Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 4:50 pm
It seems strange that your husband is not being asked for proof of his Jewish status, if that is the case.

Perhaps it would make more sense if the shul simply asked all prospective members to prove they are Jewish. This could be in the form a ketubah, parents' ketubah, gerut certificate, or a letter from the Rabbi of your previous community or a prominent Rabbi.

When we got married, DH had to provide his parents' ketubah and a letter from the chief Rabbi of his city. I'm a convert and didn't have to provide anything, as I was known by the Rabbi performing the ceremony.
Back to top



Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 5:27 pm
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
What difference does it make in terms of psak halacha?

Non mevushal wine, bishul. You can specifically cook for a Jew on Yom tov but not for a non Jew.
Back to top



Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 7:51 pm
Another way to look at it-Think about it from the Rabbi’s standpoint. If you and your family become established members of the community then your rabbi (and community) then vouch for you. On all levels. So if someone isn’t Jewish and passes off as Jewish, then all they have to say is “I was part of Rabbi Blah Blah’s community.” And then the assumption is that this person was researched and recognized as Jewish by an established rabbi. This person themselves might not know they really aren’t Jewish, and this could cause them much pain later on. Or if the person is being deceitful then it can cause issues with bris, minyan, dating, marriage, and burials for the individual, children or grandchildren. It’s a huge achrayis on the rabbi in representing his greater community.
Meet with a trusted rabbi and disclose the information prior to joining the shul. Don’t put it on the paperwork if you don’t want to. Don’t hide it either. If you don’t trust the Rabbi then don’t join the shul.
Personally I’ve dealt with this on both sides of the coin. I’m a BT married to a Rabbi with tons of Yichus. Before we married I had to have proof of my lineage. It didn’t bother me, I understood the responsibility of the mesader kiddushin to make sure everything was in order.
I see also how damaging it is when a young adult has to be told by my husband that despite their Bar Mitzvah at another orthodox shul, they really aren’t halachically Jewish and can’t have an aliyah or date the Jewish constituents in our shul. It’s hard for the rabbi and the person when it comes out that research was never done and they aren’t really Jewish.
Back to top



Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 9:08 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Is the mesader kidushin even obligated to dig deeply to verify that someone born Jewish really is? Our rav did our wedding, and knew my conversion status, but he didn't do a thing to check into my husband's yichus. Husband is also BT; rabbi knows my in-laws and MIL would appear to be Jewish, but he had no way to know if she was truly Jewish and didn't ask for documentation.

It seems like with all of this, there are 101 ways to skin a cat. Some officiants, shuls, schools, camps, etc. probe really deeply for everyone, and others take your word for if you "seem Jewish," and others give you trouble only if you're a convert.

90 years ago when my grandfather came to America he was told he could make a parnasa as a mesader kiddushin. He traveled on the subway with his chuppah and when he got to there, he realized that no one had vetted the chasan and kallah. No one found out not just if they were Jewish but if they'd been married before, etc.
He wasn't going to risk creating mamzerim, r"l. He found another parnasa but it wasn't easy.
Back to top



Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 11:38 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
See, this is what I don't get. Why are converts singled out and made to "show your papers" every which way. Why aren't Jews by birth required to show their papers to prove they're Jews by birth?

Just someone can lie that they're a convert when they're not, anyone can lie and say they're Jewish by birth when they're not.

Just someone can mistakenly believe that they're a convert when their conversion is fishy, anyone can mistakenly believe they're Jewish by birth when they have some yichus problem.

Why is no summer camp checking "papers" for those who claim to be Jewish by birth? Because it's ridiculously intrusive and unnecessary, and nobody would stand for it. So why should converts stand for showing their "papers" at every which way?

When one of my children was getting married, they met with the Rav beforehand. I was surprised when I got a call from the Rav asking how I know I'm Jewish. When I said that my mother, her mother, and her mother's mother were Jewish ( which is the farthest back the family kept records from, maybe because of moving, etc), he asked again how I know that my great- grandmother was Jewish. I was finally able to recall a story about my great-grandmother keeping mitzvos to prove that she was Jewish.
Back to top



Post Mon, Apr 12 2021, 4:53 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
You're making my point. It's a dumb and ineffective system to ask people to voluntarily admit they're converts and only show papers if they voluntary admit they're converts -- and to make nobody else show papers. Make EVERYONE show papers and prove their Jewishness, or don't ask anyone and deal with it.

Yes, I guess that is weird.

On the plus side, reading this thread, you and me know 100% we are Jewish. No relying on my great great grandmother keeping mitzvos. I know my mother converted, you know you did. Smile

In Europe people have better records but in the USA there is often no paperwork to prove someone is halachically Jewish if their parents and grandparents got married in in Non Orthodox synagogues.
Back to top



Post Sun, May 09 2021, 10:41 am
I understand the pain. My mother converted at a child...The school we went to after we moved, had that little checkbox, and it was a whole to do to get a certified copy from te beis din. my mother mentioned a few times the pain it caused her, as well as 'what if we just lied, know one would know or care'. in this case confidentiality was kept.... but still.

I knew from quite a young age that my mother converted as we have a whole non-jewish side of the family...
Back to top



Post Sun, May 09 2021, 1:19 pm
Since this thread's been revived...in light of what came to light recently in EY, it's possible that some people will be particularly neurotic and suspicious if there isn't 100% transparency. Which I know puts OP in a bind, and might sound unfair, but IMO it's something to be considered.
Back to top
Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Recent Topics

Page 5 of 5 View latest: 24h 48h 72h

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Whats A "Tiffany Bracelet" for teens
by amother
22 Tue, Jun 15 2021, 4:25 pm View last post
Place in BP that dyes Sheitels, w "Artistry" in the name?
by amother
1 Mon, Jun 14 2021, 2:03 pm View last post
New shul's community lunch - endless parade of men speaking
by amother
6 Mon, Jun 14 2021, 9:31 am View last post
by zaq
Head says "move", heart says "no way!"
by amother
6 Sun, Jun 13 2021, 10:09 am View last post
White Orchid Teeth Whitening
by amother
2 Sun, Jun 13 2021, 10:08 am View last post