Did strictness win?

Thisisnotmyreal

Tue, Apr 27 2021, 1:10 am

Op I think you'd enjoy this class https://www.torahcafe.com/tora.....4e2ac

It touches on this subject.

As a young Chabad teen, that feels the expectations from the Rebbe daily, I was completely confused the first time I saw the MO community. At first I saw a whole community that growth is not a concept. But then I realized that mo are just Jewish. They're not looking to impress others/ prove their frumkeit. They're just Jewish, doing Hashem's Mitzvos. And I respect that so much.

wif

Tue, Apr 27 2021, 2:30 am

cbsp wrote:

The strictness is not due to hilchos being invented or chumros added on. It's that the agencies have become more established and are now able to focus on areas of halacha that were glossed over initially.

I agree that there are many products that have a hechsher "just because" (garbage bags? Maybe so they can use for rising challah dough. Scratching Head

Foils I can hear the concern with the oils, but many hold it's not necessary.) And I agree that there are definitely classes of food items that don't necessarily need a hechsher.

But to lump a food establishment like Krispy Kreme into that mix??? Shows there's so much info lacking on what that entails we're not even talking the same language.

And vegan - assuming they're checking for bugs, you still can run into yayin nesach, bishul akum, establishments open on shabbos (if a restaurant), chometz not properly dealt with on Pesach (if owners are Jewish), etc.

Our physical lives have significantly improved in quality over the last century due to advances in scientific knowledge and technology. Why is it viewed as nefarious when kashrus agencies also bring up their standards so that we're following halacha in a l'chatchilah manner rather than relying on every kullah (as used to be necessary so that people wouldn't starve)?

Perfectly said.

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Apr 27 2021, 4:05 am

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

You don't think that checking leafy greens for bugs is a lot of work? For my part, I find it a great deal of work, even harder as I get older and my near vision is a thing of the past. For Pesach I ask my dc to come early so they can check the greens for me.

I buy leafy greens with hechsher like gush Katif so I only need to soak 3 min in water and dishwashing liquid. If you don't have bug free produce , then its a different story.

Aylat

Tue, Apr 27 2021, 4:49 am

Quote:

According to Wallet, Orthodox Judaism is now stricter than before. "Until the war, religion was transmitted in a mimetic way: through customs. Your father was a ritual slaughterer and so you learned it, by imitating what you saw. After the Holocaust, Eastern European communities and their local traditions were uprooted. That is why a lot has been put in writing. A textualization of the Jewish tradition took place.

If you substitute "Roman persecution and destruction of the Second Temple" for "Holocaust", this would be true. Torah sheba'al peh has been textualised since Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi codified the Mishna about two thousand years ago.

Chickensoupprof

Tue, Apr 27 2021, 6:50 am

amother [ Oak ] wrote:

You know what bothers me?

I see how the middle-aged women are considered perfectly tznius with their wigs, short and refined. Their rights are thick but not a specific company.

Their daughters usually wear tichels, hats and bands over their wigs. Not because they choose to, it's because they're expected to conform to the new tznius standard. And they have to wear a particular brand tights or they take the risk of being considered chilled.

Why was it good enough for their mothers and not them?

Hahaha see this so often and I think about this a lot. I see lots of bubbies, a nice bubby sheitel and their daughter all wear a double covering. I think this is indeed to make someone more frum and to stand out ''no but I'm frum'' and the fact that schools are following this also ''if you don't wear this brand of hosiery as mom you are out''

Chickensoupprof

Tue, Apr 27 2021, 7:10 am

About kashrus. When I become frum I was mostly involved with Chabad and later with litvish.
It was all Chalov Yisroel and Pas Yisroel. This is the Netherlands if there are 2 kosher shops in Amsterdam and few kosher sections. There were sluchim who told me that I should not trust the kashrus list of the Dutch Rabbinate. Because the cookies are not PY, and if it has milchic things the milich is not CY. Also the Dutch Rabbinate tells if you don't have access to CY you can buy cholov akum. While the people we hang around with say it's still treif. Those things confuse me.

Lot of yekkish who wear sheitels like true Amsterdammers hold by the rabbinate. Ashkanim and rabbis alike who also don't hold by Chalov Yisroel, and Pas Yisroel. They do buy kosher bread (because there are problems of course with supermarket bread). So it was for me always really confusing. And the craziest thing is... The milk of Elisha and the yogurt of Elisha is made in the Netherlands, sold in Antwerp and the kosher shops buy it over from Antwerp. Rolling Eyes

But I think that is Europe and when it is a really small community. Yet people go to Antwerp mostly before Pesach and before Tishrei. The prices do differ a lot eg kosher mayonnaise (let's say Gefen) one pot in Amsterdam costs 5.00 and in Antwerp 3,50 or something. I believed in the US what my DH told me you can walk in a gas station and find something kosher, you walk through brooklyn and you can choose for restaurant and restaurant. You can be more machmir and only want to eat heschered canned beans because you can. Well... We can't at least not here in the Netherlands. So sometimes I'm wondering if I eat less kosher than someone in the tri-state area. Or that I'm less frum, point I want to make of kashrus is, there are so many options and opinions that you can't see the forest for the trees. If X is not kosher according to rabbinate you follow but it is kosher for your friends rabbinate... like.... I find it so weird and when a rabbinate says a cookie of lotus is OK but another rabbinate say ''no only a hecsher''. Oh sometimes here in the netherlands things do have a hescher you just need to know the code on the etiket and then osmething has suddenly a KLB hescher.

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Apr 27 2021, 7:36 am

Chickensoupprof wrote:

You will find this everywhere. Some only eat eda charedit yerushalaim, some eat mehadrin hechsherim only (like I do) some eat mehadrin and rabbanut Israel etc etc.
It as well known that chabad is very strict on Kashrut.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Apr 27 2021, 9:06 am

My ex was very involved with kashrus and shechting.

He could rant for days on end about how 99% of kashrus is politics, and which rabbi is mad at what rabbi at any given time.

He worked in Postville for quite a while, and he said that the Lubavitch heksher is one thing, but then in the afternoon they switch over to Satmar. The only difference is the label on the package, and that sometimes you'll have a Lubavitch package with wings, and a Satmar package with thighs, and they came from the SAME CHICKEN!

Yet one group won't eat from the other. Go figure. Confused

We have been grocery shopping, and my ex wouldn't let me buy a certain heksher. I asked him what was wrong with it, and he said "There's nothing wrong with it, we just don't eat it." I asked him, "Is it mamash treif?" and he said "CVS! It's fine, we just don't eat it." "Why not?" "We just don't." Banging head

PinkFridge

Tue, Apr 27 2021, 9:33 am

Chickensoupprof, I'm going to reply even though I've only read p. 1 because this might offer some historical perspective.
My relatives who came to America before WWII focused on all mitzvos but particularly on Shabbos. It was the primary challenge. A lot of differences fell away: you were shomer Shabbos? It's a shidduch! (Tbh, I do know of some communities that were still a bit elite; some didn't like to marry from the other side of the tracks. And some did have genuine concerns about a prospective shidduch's commitment, if from different communities that they wouldn't have entertained a shidduch with back in Europe.)

When it came to tznius, everyone was modest. If you look at old pictures will you see hair and elbows? Yes. You might have already in Lithuania, women's hair for sure. But there were bigger battles to fight and again, the secular standards were still such that no one was provocative.

After the war, when Shabbos wasn't the battle it was, and the community was more established, there was the luxury to win other victories. And I think it's a good thing that tznius was (I don't like this word but it's useful) upgraded. And even back in the 30s, you had Rav Elchonon Wasserman Hyd decrying mixed dancing. (Not other socializing that kept kids marrying shomer Shabbos.) That mixed dancing went away is also a good thing, IMO, particularly as the outside society deteriorated. It's a good thing that battle was fought, and basically won, earlier.

When the survivors came, many of them chassidim, they wanted to rebuild. But not just rebuild, reestablish and duplicate the lost world. And that took a lot of focus on details that the communities here before the war didn't focus on. They were entirely different approaches to how to build a vibrant community.

We do believe that G-d is in the details. But I think that as the world is growing more superficial, while we may need to insulate and edit* some of the focus on details might not be healthy. I don't want to point to this minhag or that new takana, some are truly beautiful and sustainable. But we risk turning into The Sneetches (the book by Dr. Seuss. I was going to link to a reading of it but there's music on it) or "Die, heretic!" https://www.theguardian.com/st.....igion

OK, off to read the thread if I have time.

*Which is something all thinking parents do. I can point to Rabbi Keleman's book To Kindle a Soul and the chapter on TV which is pretty non-sectarian, and to tech giants not letting their kids have devices till they're 49 or whatever.

GLUE

Tue, Apr 27 2021, 11:21 am

I remember reading somewhere that if a person is very "mockbet" on a Mitzvah the Mitzvah will not leave the family. That might explain why pre war Shocket jobs past threw the family for generations.

I see now-a-days their are some family's that the father is a Mohel and so are the sons.
My father is a Bal'Kora and so are most of my brothers, My DH is a Bal'Kora and to my surprise my DS is the Bal'Kora in his school.

If I remember correctly on one of the articles of bugs there was a problem in the world before DDT came out, that was one of the reasons they came up with it. Bugs were a problem, there is a sefer written in Europe that lists the bugs that are a problem and those that are not. Farming might have been local,but so were bugs.

My father says every Machlokes needs a sponsor, Which is why you need cloths for OJ ect. someone has to make $$ to be an issue.
I find light boxes easier to use then the sun, it is easier for me to look down then to look up, and I don't have to go outside in cold weather(I am a spoiled American who needs my greens all year round not just the summer\fall)

Ema of 5

Tue, Apr 27 2021, 11:53 am

GLUE wrote:

What is an OJ cloth?