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enneamom
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 Wed, Jun 09 2021, 3:33 pm
| imaima wrote: | Jealous of not having money.
When I had no money, I also had elaborate ways to be "above them", prove to myself how I am superior but broke etc. When I started earning more and could afford luxury, none of these thoughts even entered my mind.
There are tons of assumptions here that are not necessarily true:
1. The message people want to be sending. Not everything is supposed to have a message. Or the message is not what you think it is. Or people just go with the flow without a particular intention.
How does going with the flow induce external judgment is not clear to me. You are right DVOM that some people priotirize luxury purchases over other expenses. Why are others invited to judge them??
2. "Respect me" means respect our choices. Everyone makes their own financial choices. Some people invest in clothes, others in vacations, or food, or cars. Respect these choices! Don't judge.
A $1000 stroller has a legitimately better quality than a Graco. It rolls better and is much more comfy for the child. I would recommend anyone who has the money to invest in it since it is great for both parents and children.
3. I don't get why education and money are in opposition here. Why is it either or. They very often go hand in hand together. People need education to get money. Either formal or not. Knowing what brands are good quality is also valuable. Knowing that a good stroller won't ruin your back is valuable. Knowing what brands produce clothes made of natural fibre that are well cut is valuable. Educated people won't settle for less to prove to a poorer person that they not "one of the Joneses".
You cannot respect people for their intellect because they have designer stuff - why not? Surely many of these people have either education or character traits or work ethic that enabled them to acquire that money! Surely these qualities are worthy of respect.
And if you are not capable of that, you should at least try and be DLKZ about how these people got to have these things. For all you know, that could be a gift or people are really better off than you think and donate double as much to charity.
I agree that being frugal is another club where members are just as stuck up as those in the other clubs (don't get me started on people with yichus club). I have a friend who is so toxic in her frugality, it is so cringy. You can't mention that you bought something for a child - she will right away mention how she got all the kids stuff as hand-me-downs so she didn't spend a penny. It is in the tone of voice. |
The problem (or one of them, at any rate) with all your assertions is that it is objectively a Jewish value to be frugal, and it does indicate superior middos and/or righteousness. It's not "well, both ways are good, so who are you to judge". Some say it's a mitzvas asei deoraisah: קדש עצמך במותר לך
If we can judge others for aveiros like speaking lashon hara, cheating on their taxes, or lying, this should not be an exception.
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amother
Burntblack
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 3:34 pm
| amother [ Crimson ] wrote: | | Disagree. Counting the children's adult weight, that would be 26 children. Fewer if they're overweight. |
Y’all are in the wrong thread!
Come join the doona airplane thread
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amother
Burntblack
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 3:36 pm
| enneamom wrote: | The problem (or one of them, at any rate) with all your assertions is that it is objectively a Jewish value to be frugal, and it does indicate superior middos and/or righteousness. It's not "well, both ways are good, so who are you to judge". Some say it's a mitzvas asei deoraisah: קדש עצמך במותר לך
If we can judge others for aveiros like speaking lashon hara, cheating on their taxes, or lying, this should not be an exception. |
Serious question:
Is it the living frugally that’s a good thing?
Is it giving up on luxeries?
If the designer object is on sale is it ok to buy?
I’m not being facetious- it’s something I struggle to understand
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amother
DarkGray
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 3:36 pm
| imaima wrote: | Of course it matters.
The entire OP is demeaning. Yet it's only my comment you are calling out.
Well it was not meant to be a neutral comment either, in case you haven't noticed.
It was sarcatic, to state the obvious. |
Actually, I totally missed the sarcasm. Sorry. I read your post after greeneyes which runs along the same line of thought (although I highly doubt she was being sarcastic).
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imaima
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 3:40 pm
| amother [ Burntblack ] wrote: | Y’all are in the wrong thread!
Come join the doona airplane thread |
I don't have Moncler coats for my ton of kids 
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imaima
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 3:47 pm
| enneamom wrote: | The problem (or one of them, at any rate) with all your assertions is that it is objectively a Jewish value to be frugal, and it does indicate superior middos and/or righteousness. It's not "well, both ways are good, so who are you to judge". Some say it's a mitzvas asei deoraisah: קדש עצמך במותר לך
If we can judge others for aveiros like speaking lashon hara, cheating on their taxes, or lying, this should not be an exception. |
I am sure this value does not apply to all streams of Judaism if at all. But still:
1. You cannot define frugal for a person whose income is unknown to you. Even if someone has a Chanel bag when she can afford an alligator Birkin, and flies business class when she could afford a private jet. So she is actually living below her means.
Noone owes you righteousness. It is between man and G-d.
Noone is trying to hurt others by owning a designer item.
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DVOM
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 3:47 pm
| imaima wrote: | Jealous of not having money.
When I had no money, I also had elaborate ways to be "above them", prove to myself how I am superior but broke etc. When I started earning more and could afford luxury, none of these thoughts even entered my mind.
There are tons of assumptions here that are not necessarily true:
1. The message people want to be sending. Not everything is supposed to have a message. Or the message is not what you think it is. Or people just go with the flow without a particular intention.
How does going with the flow induce external judgment is not clear to me. You are right DVOM that some people priotirize luxury purchases over other expenses. Why are others invited to judge them??
2. "Respect me" means respect our choices. Everyone makes their own financial choices. Some people invest in clothes, others in vacations, or food, or cars. Respect these choices! Don't judge.
A $1000 stroller has a legitimately better quality than a Graco. It rolls better and is much more comfy for the child. I would recommend anyone who has the money to invest in it since it is great for both parents and children.
3. I don't get why education and money are in opposition here. Why is it either or. They very often go hand in hand together. People need education to get money. Either formal or not. Knowing what brands are good quality is also valuable. Knowing that a good stroller won't ruin your back is valuable. Knowing what brands produce clothes made of natural fibre that are well cut is valuable. Educated people won't settle for less to prove to a poorer person that they not "one of the Joneses".
You cannot respect people for their intellect because they have designer stuff - why not? Surely many of these people have either education or character traits or work ethic that enabled them to acquire that money! Surely these qualities are worthy of respect.
And if you are not capable of that, you should at least try and be DLKZ about how these people got to have these things. For all you know, that could be a gift or people are really better off than you think and donate double as much to charity.
I agree that being frugal is another club where members are just as stuck up as those in the other clubs (don't get me started on people with yichus club). I have a friend who is so toxic in her frugality, it is so cringy. You can't mention that you bought something for a child - she will right away mention how she got all the kids stuff as hand-me-downs so she didn't spend a penny. It is in the tone of voice. |
Interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing!
a) I have money, thank you god! I can afford the luxuries. Probably not my own boat or a jet, but I could certainly afford a fancy stroller and designer clothing if I had a yen for it.
1) I think you're deluding yourself if you think your external presentation is not sending a message. In fact, I think many people buy specific things in order to send specific messages about who they are, where they belong. (In a slightly different way, men will wear a black hat, or a kippa sruga, or a strimel, as a way to signal their belonging, or a woman will wear a human hair wig or a barret or a mitpachat to signal their community affiliation). Do you really think dressing your family in luxury clothing while driving a luxury car or pushing a luxury stroller doesn't signal some message about where you believe you belong, how you'd like others to see you?
2) I respect everyone's right to choose how they'd like to spend their money. But again, I don't respect peer pressure. I can understand it. I can sympathize with the pull to spend on things that will make you feel like you fit it. But I don't respect it. You do?
3)I don't get why money and education are opposites either. Often they're not. I very much respect the hard work, effort, stamina, education that it takes to be really good at your profession, whether that profession produces a large paycheck or not. Interestingly, the people that I know who are highly educated (college professors, doctors, finance workers) do not belong to the 'designer stuff' club. I'm confused about what your point is with this one. Can you elaborate?
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DVOM
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 3:54 pm
| amother [ DarkGray ] wrote: | | So its ok to judge a person based on their clothing? If I were to judge how frum a person is based on their clothing you'd be ok with it? |
I think it's human, Gray. I think it's instinctive to collect information that others provide us based on the way they present themselves and form conclusions.
We are obligated to try to judge others favorably.
So it's not 'ok', but it is human.
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DVOM
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 3:57 pm
| amother [ Eggplant ] wrote: | I didnt read all the comments, but I read some of the other thread.
Its actually perfect. those with designer clothes feel good about themselves, "exclusivity"as you call it. and those who are pissed and jealous, can be self righteious and feel holier than. Win-win.
Honesty, I spent most of my life buying Zara, h&m, etc. and I do have some designer clothes now. But I rarely talk about where I shop. and I rarely talk about where others shop. I dont like the conversation about clothes at all. So you guys seem to be the one who are obsessed. Have fun up there. |
Seems like you get to feel holier than both groups, Eggplant. So I guess it's win-win-and-win!
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DVOM
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 3:59 pm
| imaima wrote: | | It is the same community DVOM refers to in her OP... |
What community did I refer to, imaima? I didn't have any one specific in mind.
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enneamom
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 4:01 pm
| imaima wrote: | I am sure this value does not apply to all streams of Judaism if at all. But still:
1. You cannot define frugal for a person whose income is unknown to you. Even if someone has a Chanel bag when she can afford an alligator Birkin, and flies business class when she could afford a private jet. So she is actually living below her means.
Noone owes you righteousness. It is between man and G-d.
Noone is trying to hurt others by owning a designer item. |
Oh, it does. Some people simply prefer not to think about it.
Being ostentatious is never something that is only between man and G-d. The whole point of it is to show off for others. After which, it negatively affects the community by raising material standards and lowering spiritual standards.
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amother
Brickred
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 4:16 pm
| GreenEyes26 wrote: | But in these communities, they DO judge how frum you are based on how you’re dressed. Women are literally told that if they don’t wear a certain hair covering or denier of tights their kids will be kicked out of school.
In these communities, it seems like externals matter more than anything else. Not only will families be looked down upon if they don’t dress “right”, repercussions for dressing in a certain way can be as grave as total expulsion from the group. It should never, ever be a good enough reason to punish someone because they have a too-long Shaitel or wear jeans instead of black pants. It shouldn’t be ok. But somehow, entire communities are built around conformity. Dress being one part of it. |
Its true. I live in one of these communities and its a issue. But on the other hand when I visit other communities, or Take my recent experience at my (non jewish) OB, and GI appointments, the moment I walk through the door and they see my mode of dress, very conservative head covering, theres a very very clear shift in how I am treated. And its not on the respectable side.
I have been to jewish stores outside my community where the salesladies treated me in a very demeaning manner as opposed to her sugary tone of voice to the lady next to me, who wasn't dressed so frum as I was. So, this judgment issue is all encompassing and in my opinion not limited to any specific community.
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GreenEyes26
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 4:40 pm
| amother [ Brickred ] wrote: | Its true. I live in one of these communities and its a issue. But on the other hand when I visit other communities, or Take my recent experience at my (non jewish) OB, and GI appointments, the moment I walk through the door and they see my mode of dress, very conservative head covering, theres a very very clear shift in how I am treated. And its not on the respectable side.
I have been to jewish stores outside my community where the salesladies treated me in a very demeaning manner as opposed to her sugary tone of voice to the lady next to me, who wasn't dressed so frum as I was. So, this judgment issue is all encompassing and in my opinion not limited to any specific community. |
The difference is, you can choose a new OB, or leave the store and not buy anything. In those communities, people don’t have any options. It’s toe the line or essentially be excommunicated.
So if it extends as far as women’s stocking thickness and hair length, of course it’s going to extend to things like brand of stroller or coat. It’s not going to get you kicked out of school, true, but it will affect your social standing. It’s all tangled together in the larger problem of absolute conformity.
If EVERYONE has to wear the same “costume”, why should the accessories be treated any differently?
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amother
Valerian
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 4:51 pm
I just want to chime in here about the rich upping other people’s standards and the poor feeling like they must fit in.
I live in a VERY OOT left-wing community. There are people here with serious money and people here with no money. Some of the rich people wear designer, some wear Target (most a mix). No poor person feels like they have to buy things they can’t afford to fit in. Because no one cares what you wear and clothing is a non-issue. I of course compliment my friends and notice what they’re wearing all the time, but no one is judged by it. And no one feels pressure to wear anything, be it a Shaitel, hat, long sleeves, short sleeves, jeans or skirts. You wear what you want and your worth is not based on your appearance.
I happen to be on the fancier side but that’s because I like it. I also don’t buy the brands that are popular in the frum world (honestly, it’s so interesting to me how some designer brands become “hot” to in-towners and some don’t). I don’t think anyone can tell the brand of my bags or shoes by looking at them, because I also don’t buy things with labels.
The important point is, I can do what I want because I have no peer pressure. Some of the very very wealthy families wear casual clothing but vacation every few months to places like Aruba and some look like total casual soccer moms but have full-time nannies and 4 cars and huge houses. People are allowed to spend money the way they want, but 1) don’t be ostentatious about it and 2) if the community as a whole needs THE SAME THING, then it’s a real problem with that communities priorities.
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amother
Chicory
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 4:58 pm
I didn’t read all 8 pages.
But I just want to add my two cents.
To give some background: I grew up in an upper middle class non religious neighborhood. Everyone ranged from very comfortable to insanely wealthy. (Insanely wealthy meant you had a helicopter pad by your house.)
I’ve moved in those kind of economic circles all my life. I’m at the way bottom of the economic totem poll and I’m there by choice of my profession. So it’s all good.
But we’ve private jetted to bar mitzvas in Europe with friends and stuff like that.
In my world (I’ve lived in 4 continents and have hung out in widely different community’s to upper east manhattan, to Pacific Northwest techie billionaires, to European banking communities) , and most of the world I’ve been in, you are in an incredibly high income bracket when you wear Chanel flats for example or moncler coats. Outside of a very specific frum demographic and clearly some non Jewish inner city Brooklyn demographic, the people wearing luxury goods in the regular are incredibly wealthy.
That is not to say that your lower bracket wouldn’t have some things that are luxury items, like a real nice bag that they wear. Or maybe a good quality Cartier watch.
But the constant buying of luxury goods (in the vast circles that I have circulated in) is for incredibly wealthy people. People who have a vast amount of disposable income, after 10-20% given to charity and 30% invested and living in homes worth $10 mil plus and staff and vacations and private school tuitions etc.....
And so every time I have the opportunity to be in certain areas in New York I am shocked by the luxury brand consumerism that is so prevalent and at first I was surprised there was so many people who had so much disposable income, and then I realized that they didn’t.
It was a completely different type of luxury shopper than I was used too and it’s just jarring to see that in a community that’s all about spirituality, and constantly fundraising for things like education. The people I know who buy luxury goods regularly send their kids to schools with endowments in the hundreds of millions. Spot the difference?
And honestly don’t compare buying stuff to having experiences. They are not the same.
And if it’s not even real, it’s fakes, I’m trying hard not to judge your morally, ethically, legally and halachically dubious choices that are made in the name of “this is what makes me happy” and “fitting in” but so far I’m failing.
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amother
Eggplant
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 5:00 pm
| DVOM wrote: | | Seems like you get to feel holier than both groups, Eggplant. So I guess it's win-win-and-win! |
I'm winning so much, I'm getting tired of winning.
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amother
Burntblack
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 5:03 pm
This is reminding me of a funny thread a while back where someone said: everyone knows what a moncler is!
I honestly didn’t (still don’t)
And the poster responded- don’t pretend!
Oy
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imaima
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 5:21 pm
| enneamom wrote: | Oh, it does. Some people simply prefer not to think about it.
Being ostentatious is never something that is only between man and G-d. The whole point of it is to show off for others. After which, it negatively affects the community by raising material standards and lowering spiritual standards. |
Quote please
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imaima
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 5:22 pm
| DVOM wrote: | | What community did I refer to, imaima? I didn't have any one specific in mind. |
I didn't either.
DarkGrey did.
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DVOM
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 5:22 pm
| amother [ Valerian ] wrote: | I just want to chime in here about the rich upping other people’s standards and the poor feeling like they must fit in.
I live in a VERY OOT left-wing community. There are people here with serious money and people here with no money. Some of the rich people wear designer, some wear Target (most a mix). No poor person feels like they have to buy things they can’t afford to fit in. Because no one cares what you wear and clothing is a non-issue. I of course compliment my friends and notice what they’re wearing all the time, but no one is judged by it. And no one feels pressure to wear anything, be it a Shaitel, hat, long sleeves, short sleeves, jeans or skirts. You wear what you want and your worth is not based on your appearance.
I happen to be on the fancier side but that’s because I like it. I also don’t buy the brands that are popular in the frum world (honestly, it’s so interesting to me how some designer brands become “hot” to in-towners and some don’t). I don’t think anyone can tell the brand of my bags or shoes by looking at them, because I also don’t buy things with labels.
The important point is, I can do what I want because I have no peer pressure. Some of the very very wealthy families wear casual clothing but vacation every few months to places like Aruba and some look like total casual soccer moms but have full-time nannies and 4 cars and huge houses. People are allowed to spend money the way they want, but 1) don’t be ostentatious about it and 2) if the community as a whole needs THE SAME THING, then it’s a real problem with that communities priorities. |
That sounds like a very beautiful community to belong to.
I agree with both of your conclusions.
How do you think your community is managing to create that inclusive, your-all-valued vibe? Is it because the community is small? Is there solid leadership modeling these values (non ostentatious wealth/ little pressure to 'keep up')?
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