Cleaning lady gave me bill of rights demanding $20 per hour

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Forum -> Household Management -> Cleaning & Laundry

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monkeymamma

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 11:12 am

Amarante wrote:

The "bill of rights" doesn't make her an employee.

She is OP's employee legally at this point because she works for her 30 hours per week each week and receives more than $600 in wages annually.

She is probably not an independent contractor because she performs services under the supervision of OP at hours designated by OP and using supplies and tools that are supplied by OP.

If the bill of right doesnt make her an employee then why bring it up?
If she works 30 hours a week then she can get minimum wage (in NY that is $15 an hour, I dont think its higher in any other state but may be lower in NJ so op would need to check) and pay taxes on it. Its part time so she is not entitled to any benefits, not even transportation (which employees dont really cover to begin with). So op should look into making it legal and paying the appropriate taxes for every hour paid (an accountant should be able to assist with it). Op would need her employees social security number in order to do so (employee would be filling out the W2 form and provide the proper documents just like any other employee in America required to provide it for tax purposes). The other option is to get someone from an agency who may charge more money but do the job in less time and pay their own taxes as an independent contractor. Not sure what your argument is, please clarify.

SixOfWands

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 11:12 am

#BestBubby wrote:

In crazy USA illegals have more rights then citizens.

I heard of illegals suing frum bosses for paying below min. wage and not paying social security - and the won!

As noted, its illegal to hire undocumented aliens, and illegal to pay anyone below minimum wage (with certain exceptions, eg restaurant servers). Are you saying that frum bosses knowingly break the law? Isn't that TYRANNY?

monkeymamma

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 11:29 am

SixOfWands wrote:

How is it tyranny? And many employers have workers who are independent contractors so it would be up to the employee to pay their taxes on their own so not sure why you blame Jews if the independent contractors they hire dont pay taxes.
But as I said, op should look into making it legal which means that the employee would be getting paid minimum wage minus taxes without any benefits (without transportation since that is not a legal requirement to begin with so not sure why people are paying it) since its a part time job. Do you think the workers would appreciate that or would they prefer their $15 cash without any complaints or demanding these changes that wouldnt benefit them in the first place? Looks like the cleaning ladies were ahead of the game before these changes..

creditcards

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 11:43 am

schmoois1 wrote:

I have a cleaning lady (I live in Lakewood, NJ) for more than six years. Since I work very, very full time I have her for about 30 hours per week.
I started off at $12 per hour but now she is up to $15 per hour with about $25 extra per week in transportation. She gets a lunch break paid for about 20 minutes per day (works around 5 hrs total per day), and my house is quiet and calm so most often she is doing slow, non-labor intensive work like washing dishes and folding laundry.
She recently informed me that she is pregnant and will be leaving in about 4-5 months Sad

Today she showed up with a ‘Bill of Rights for Domestic Workers’ printed out that she said ‘someone gave her’. It claims to be from the website newlabor.org
One of the things it says is ‘a base salary of $20’
I went on the website but cannot see anywhere it says that (only that they were pleased when the minimum wage was raised to $15 in NJ).
I’m not sure there’s anywhere to print it from the website, or if someone made it up to get more money from the employers.
There is NO WAY I can afford $20 per hour, I can barely afford what I’m paying now but it’s a necessity or I can’t work so many hours.
Do any of you have experience with this - is this the going rate? A ploy? Did you ever hear of this organization?
Can ppl in Lakewood advise?

Going rate was $15 now starting to be $16 I hear.
They have their chat groups and support each other into only working for a certain price....

SixOfWands

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 11:49 am

monkeymamma wrote:

How is it tyranny?

It is tyranny to demand that people be forced into illegal conditions because of immigration status.

monkeymamma wrote:

And many employers have workers who are independent contractors so it would be up to the employee to pay their taxes on their own so not sure why you blame Jews if the independent contractors they hire dont pay taxes.

Perhaps you misread my post. I never discussed payment of taxes or independent contractor status. I discussed (1) whether it is legal to employ undocumented aliens (its not); and (2) whether having already taken the step of illegally employing an undocumented alien, you may exploit that worker by refusing to pay minimum wage, on the grounds that they have no rights (its not).

monkeymamma wrote:

But as I said, op should look into making it legal which means that the employee would be getting paid minimum wage minus taxes without any benefits (without transportation since that is not a legal requirement to begin with so not sure why people are paying it) since its a part time job. Do you think the workers would appreciate that or would they prefer their $15 cash without any complaints or demanding these changes that wouldnt benefit them in the first place? Looks like the cleaning ladies were ahead of the game before these changes..

I'm not sure why you think that a cleaning person would not benefit from working on the books, so that she would be entitled to social security and other government benefits.

I'm also not sure why you think that employers pay only the bare minimum that they are required. I make over minimum wage. My oldest, in his first job, receives health care and a 401(k) match, neither legally required.

Again, so long as you are paying a legal wage, you're free to do what you want. And workers are free to quit.

monkeymamma

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 12:03 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

It is tyranny to demand that people be forced into illegal conditions because of immigration status.

monkeymamma wrote:
And many employers have workers who are independent contractors so it would be up to the employee to pay their taxes on their own so not sure why you blame Jews if the independent contractors they hire dont pay taxes.

Perhaps you misread my post. I never discussed payment of taxes or independent contractor status. I discussed (1) whether it is legal to employ undocumented aliens (its not); and (2) whether having already taken the step of illegally employing an undocumented alien, you may exploit that worker by refusing to pay minimum wage, on the grounds that they have no rights (its not).

monkeymamma wrote:

But as I said, op should look into making it legal which means that the employee would be getting paid minimum wage minus taxes without any benefits (without transportation since that is not a legal requirement to begin with so not sure why people are paying it) since its a part time job. Do you think the workers would appreciate that or would they prefer their $15 cash without any complaints or demanding these changes that wouldnt benefit them in the first place? Looks like the cleaning ladies were ahead of the game before these changes..

I'm not sure why you think that a cleaning person would not benefit from working on the books, so that she would be entitled to social security and other government benefits.

I'm also not sure why you think that employers pay only the bare minimum that they are required. I make over minimum wage. My oldest, in his first job, receives health care and a 401(k) match, neither legally required.

Again, so long as you are paying a legal wage, you're free to do what you want. And workers are free to quit.

No on is forcing anyone to do anything and these workers can leave at any time they want without notice which they do when they find other jobs. In fact, people dont even ask for the immigration status of their cleaning lady and still pay them nicely (more than minimum wage in many cases). provide transportation and food (which employees are not legally entitled to) so your attack on Jews for helping illegal aliens is not ok especially right after Yom Kippur.

This bill of rights and demanding more than minimum wage is going to hurt these domestic workers who are not entitled to more than minimum wage (but are getting more in lots of cases) and are not currently paying taxes which would change now that the govt is giving them "rights" so they would need to start paying taxes. Seems like you are agreeing with me that they should be paying taxes. So the employers can request their social security number and/or other legal documents for the w2 form. Employers would not have to pay more than minimum wage (regardless of what you or your son are getting so not sure why you bring that up) and are not entitled to any benefits since they are part time. How many of these domestic workers do you think would still have a job if they would only be paid minimum wage, without food or transportation or any benefit, and have to start paying their taxes? Why does the govt want to hurt these employees? That is tyranny btw which in case you dont know is abuse of power by the govt.
Weird that liberals claim that they want to help illegal aliens but then hurt them by passing such bills (same with providing public assistance for people but not let them earn living wages if they still want to qualify for public assistance)

schmoois1

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 12:05 pm

I posted a reply before which somehow got lost… Sad

I offered numerous times to pay her on the books (but she doesn’t want - so yes I’m doing something illegal…so is she…)
She is very well taken care of.
She gets breaks, no heavy work, paid lunch, a few paid days off, never ever late with money, paid her a lot extra by COVID to help her out when she couldn’t come for a long while…
I don’t think there’s any tyranny here.
I think she has a cushy job.
I feel like this printed up ‘bill of rights’ is a ploy, though, and if you want a raise, just ask for it nicely without handing over a ‘bill of rights’ that ‘someone’ gave you…no?
And I’m hearing from people on here that $20 is NOT the going rate, no?
What would you do if you were me? I don’t want to lose her (at least not till she has the baby in February), but don’t want to be taken advantage of either.

monkeymamma

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 12:15 pm

schmoois1 wrote:

I posted a reply before which somehow got lost… Sad

Since she gave you a bill of rights, give her a W2 form to complete as well as the minimum wage rule and tell her that the laws need to be followed and tell her that she will be getting paid legally from now on according the the laws (she cant pick and choose which laws need to be followed, all of them need to be followed including tax laws which she needs to pay). Try to do this in writing or via text so you have a paper trail in case she complains about it.
Alternatively, hire someone from an agency to avoid these issues. You may pay a little more but you wouldnt have to worry about paying taxes since they are independent contractors who pay their own taxes. Seems like that would be more cost effective if you are currently paying wages plus food and transportation so that may be the best option in the end.

Sb1234

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 12:22 pm

schmoois1 wrote:

I posted a reply before which somehow got lost… Sad

This bill of rights is nothing legal. You do not have to listen to it. 20$ an hour is a lot. 15$ an hour cash is the going rate. And if they were making that on the books, it would be less. Which is why many domestic workers would rather cash.

That being said- she has the right to ask you for 100$ an hour. She can ask you for a 3 hour paid lunch and a daily back massage. You also have the right to say no, or try and find a middle ground if you don’t want to lose her.

Amarante

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 12:40 pm

schmoois1 wrote:

What would you do if you were me? I don’t want to lose her (at least not till she has the baby in February), but don’t want to be taken advantage of either.

Do what was suggested in the first posts before the thread got hijacked. Smile

That she gave you a piece of paper is irrelevant with a Bill of Rights is irrelevant.

Ask her if she is asking for a raise? Is she asking for $20?

Tell her that you can't give her a raise or that you can raise her up to $X.

Just have a discussion the way any employer does with an employee regarding wages.

At that point she will do what she wants to do and you can take it from there.

lopman29

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 12:42 pm

My most terrifying nightmare is that if the cleaning help get injured on the “job” you’re home insurance policy may not cover it plus even if it does medical liability on home insurance plans is dismal

monkeymamma

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 12:51 pm

Amarante wrote:

Do what was suggested in the first posts before the thread got hijacked. Smile

Are you suggesting that neither op nor the cleaning lady pay any taxes?

workingmom613

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 1:03 pm

Can see where she got that information wrong but u can also tell her that then u will pay her on the books bec that’s for legal workers I presume u are giving her cash If she demands that then pay her on the books and she will be stuck paying most of it to taxes

gonewiththewind1

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 1:12 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Surely you're not accusing someone here of acting illegally.

First, of course, it is illegal to employ undocumented aliens. Surely people, particularly the conservatives here who regularly rant against undocumented aliens, would never do that.

Its also illegal to break labor laws based on immigration status.

But as others have said, she's entitled to ask for as much as she wants. You're entitled to say no. Then if she quits, you presumably find someone else.

Do you know anyone who asks their cleaning lady for their social security number, or who doesn't pay in cash?

Shmaichel

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 1:12 pm

Maybe you can agree to 20 INSTEAD OF transportation/ days off?

Then she can just choose what’s more valuable to her? And maybe she’ll realize that by you giving her that you’ve actually been paying her more per hour.

schmoois1

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 2:10 pm

Shmaichel wrote:

I think that would still come out to more money, wouldn’t it?

Amarante

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 2:21 pm

monkeymamma wrote:

Are you suggesting that neither op nor the cleaning lady pay any taxes?

What did my response have to do with paying taxes or not paying taxes?

You response seems to imply that it was somehow a clever *gotcha* response.

I merely said that the bill of rights was a red herring as OP needs to discuss what her cleaning lady wants in terms of a salary as it isn’t clear whether she has asked for a raise to $20.

She should proceed in the same manner as she would if the cleaning lady directly asked for a raise and didn’t hand her a meaningless piece of paper.

In terms of legality, a cleaning lady working for 30 hours per week is an employee but that is a completely separate issue in terms of whether OP wants to comply.

SixOfWands

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 2:21 pm

SafeAtLast wrote:

Do you know anyone who asks their cleaning lady for their social security number, or who doesn't pay in cash?

Yes.

lkwdlady

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 2:28 pm

Please don’t give in. The Lakewood cleaning ladies are all on a chat and this past week they decided to present this paper to the people they work for. We are not giving them a raise now as they are already getting paid well and we treat them nicely. I am without help now as many of my neighbors are. They are illegal and can only work for us. They are trying to scare us but it won’t work if we don’t give in. There is no such bill of rights. They created this on their own. Eventually they will come back asking for work because we are sticking together and not letting them demand such a high amount. If you give in it will effect all all of us so please don’t.

schmoois1

Mon, Sep 20 2021, 2:53 pm

lkwdlady wrote:

Oh wow! So you’ve heard of others getting the same exact ‘bill of rights’?
Is there a way I can upload it for others to see?

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