Home

Do women dance the hakafot in your shul?
  Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next  Last >>
 
Post new topic       Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Succos


View latest: 24h 48h 72h


Poll

Do women dance in your shul?
Yes  
 12%  [ 34 ]
No  
 87%  [ 241 ]
Total Votes : 275


amother




Salmon
 

Post Wed, Sep 22 2021, 11:18 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Do women dance the hakafot in your shul? They do in mine and the last year or two, the women were even given a torah to dance with.
no
Back to top

amother




Carnation
 

Post Wed, Sep 22 2021, 11:42 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Ladies, I wasnt asking if women dance with torahs. I really just wanted to know if the women dance the hakafot at all, in your shuls.

Nope
Back to top

sarahph1




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 12:03 am
Neverrr would hapoen in my circles
Back to top

zaq




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 1:06 am
dena613 wrote:
I heard(didn't confirm) women in niddah can't look at open torah our touch Torah


Nonsense. A Sefer Torah is not mekabel tum’ah, and even if it were, you can’t transmit tum’ah just by looking at something.
Back to top

amother




Thistle
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 1:08 am
amother [ Cantaloupe ] wrote:
not a bais yaakov
I went to michlalah
I find it very difficult to believe that an instructor in michlalah taught this. I’m prepared to believe you picked up ignorant hearsay from a fellow student.
Back to top

BadTichelDay




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 1:42 am
zaq wrote:
Nonsense. A Sefer Torah is not mekabel tum’ah, and even if it were, you can’t transmit tum’ah just by looking at something.


There are some who hold like this, even though technically tum'ah can't be transmitted to anything by the act of looking. I've heard of this a few times and read it in some sefer, don't recall which - suppose it falls under minhag. Not my/our minhag, anyway.
Back to top

etky




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 2:12 am
BadTichelDay wrote:
There are some who hold like this, even though technically tum'ah can't be transmitted to anything by the act of looking. I've heard of this a few times and read it in some sefer, don't recall which - suppose it falls under minhag. Not my/our minhag, anyway.



The mainstream halachic opinion as per Rambam,based on the gemara, is that a sefer Torah cannot be mekabel tumah.
However there is a good deal of minhag surrounding the issue of nidda and the Torah and going to shul in general.
Women in many communities in medieval and early mordern Ashkenaz were stringent about not entering a shul while they were nidda.
This was a custom and not halacha and was presented as such in many halachic works from these periods.
In later periods, in some communities where women had already discarded the custom of avoiding shul while they were in nidda, they avoided looking at the Torah during hagba as a remnant of this custom.
Back to top

shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 2:56 am
Again ladies, I was not asking if yo dance with a torah. I was ust curious if most women dance in your shul on simchat torah.
Back to top

Teomima




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 3:32 am
Yes women dance at my shul. I won't get into the with/without a sefer Torah matter because that was not a part of the op.

BadTichelDay wrote:
The shul is very Israeli and kind of Mercaz ha-Rav (Kook) style and there are virtually no Anglos, but part of the people are eidot ha-mizrach. Maybe that explains it. Different outlook.

The dancing is not an anglo thing, but I think the not dancing is more of an eidot ha-mizrach type thing.
Back to top

LovesHashem




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 3:43 am
I have read women who are on their period should not look into the Torah when it's held up during Krias Hatorah - I read this in a halacha sefer, did not learn this in school.

I remember reading they should not enter a kever either.

I'll see if I can find the sources for these. The question is if it said should not, or is prohibited.

I'm pretty sure it was the first one - I do not think it is actually outright assur.
Back to top

chanchy123




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 4:14 am
BadTichelDay wrote:
Hmm. The first shul I went to in Israel, with the dancing with the Torah was very Anglo- and in general, olim chadashim oriented, so I automatically assumed that was why. The other shuls I have been to were eidot hamizrach, Chabad, hill-top and one or two kind of old-school centrist orthodox (in Jerusalem). And of course our DL-torani shul, which I described above. None of those were into women dancing or doing much of anything. I guess it varies. Maybe in cities in general it is a bit more open minded and different from yishuvim (=where I live).

That’s funny because I’ve been in a city on Simchat Torah less than a handful of times - almost every single experience I’ve had on Simchat Torah was in a yishuv.
I guess it depends on the type of city. I had never thought of women dancing without a Sefer in the women’s section behind a mechitza as a liberal or open minded thing, to me is just normal mainstream DL while the more open-minded or liberal communities would have women’s laining and/or hakafot with a Sefer. Just dancing is very benign. Of course in some communities women dance less than in others or only the teens participate, but I’ve never been to a place where “it’s not done” I thought that was the case in chareidi shuls.
Back to top

etky




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 4:20 am
chanchy123 wrote:
That’s funny because I’ve been in a city on Simchat Torah less than a handful of times - almost every single experience I’ve had on Simchat Torah was in a yishuv.
I guess it depends on the type of city. I had never thought of women dancing without a Sefer in the women’s section behind a mechitza as a liberal or open minded thing, to me is just normal mainstream DL while the more open-minded or liberal communities would have women’s laining and/or hakafot with a Sefer. Just dancing is very benign.


My take too.
I grew up in a very middle of the road Young Israel in NYC in the seventies and it was a given that women danced on Simchat Torah (in the street - the police would cordon off the street for the shul to dance) in separate circles from the men. It wasn't in any way a statement. There was nothing assertive or liberal about it, it was just taken for granted.
Back to top

BadTichelDay




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 5:10 am
chanchy123 wrote:
That’s funny because I’ve been in a city on Simchat Torah less than a handful of times - almost every single experience I’ve had on Simchat Torah was in a yishuv.
I guess it depends on the type of city. I had never thought of women dancing without a Sefer in the women’s section behind a mechitza as a liberal or open minded thing, to me is just normal mainstream DL while the more open-minded or liberal communities would have women’s laining and/or hakafot with a Sefer. Just dancing is very benign. Of course in some communities women dance less than in others or only the teens participate, but I’ve never been to a place where “it’s not done” I thought that was the case in chareidi shuls.


At least in our local yishuv main shul, other than eidot ha-mizrach influence, and the chardal style of our rav, maybe the relatively small size of the women's section and the heavy, hardly movable benches and the crowding and the fact that people have babies and small children on them all contribute. It might be a "multi-factorial" local issue that makes dancing not a done thing.
I also think that maybe some teenage girls dance by themselves in a side room, out of sight. I'll check, bli neder, but even if, the point is, it's done invisibly and not in the main section and not by most women.
A lot of the other shuls I've been to in Israel, were not really classic DL, comes to think of it, but sefardi-chareidi, chabad or what I call centrist orthodox which is like 50% black hats with a yekkish undercurrant. Back in Europe, my shul was traditional, not very observant but orthodox in outlook and by name, and most people there agewise in their 70ies and 80ies. Bit past dancing age, but the men as well.

In short, while I identify as DL, maybe a lot of shuls I've been to, are not.
Back to top

amother




Green
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 9:29 am
Small heimishe/chassidishe shul with lots of BTs. On simchas Torah there is no mechitza, just some tables separating the men and women. The children often sit on the tables. Neither I nor anyone I know have ever wanted to dance.
Back to top

miami85




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 10:08 am
Growing up my shul had women's dancing available for Simchas Torah day, and sure I thought it was fun and I enjoyed it. As I grew older, more mature and my hashkafos shifted, I no longer feel the need or desire to dance on Simchas Torah. Sure I learn Torah at times, I value my Torah education, I appreciate a good d'var Torah and I go to shiurim when I have the opportunity, but what I have come to understand is that dancing on Simchas Torah for men is very different than it is for women.

1)It's best described like at a wedding the dancing of the best friend vs. the close cousin. Sure the cousin comes a few times a year, you see each other at family gatherings, you send each other texts and emails, you have common relatives to talk about, and common experiences from getting together, but your best friend you see every day-whether at school or work, or just your block. You know each other's jokes, you know what makes each other sad/happy/laugh. It's just a different relationship and even for women who do have a regular learning every day, it's different because it's not an obligation for women the same way it is for men who have to figure out how to work it into their life one way or another, for women it's a "nice thing to do".

And even if the men are not baalei yeshiva, learning all day

2) Dancing on Simchas Torah is like a man's spiritual insurance policy for the year, it needs yearly renewal, whereas a woman was created differently and their neshamos need it once in a lifetime--at their wedding. For men who don't have a daily or all-day connection to Torah learning, Simchas Torah is almost like a "pep rally" getting them "in the mood" to be involved in Torah, more than it is celebrating their accomplishments in learning.

Being in a shul vs. being in a yeshiva you see the difference in approaches to Simchas Torah.
Back to top

shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 10:20 am
miami85 wrote:
Growing up my shul had women's dancing available for Simchas Torah day, and sure I thought it was fun and I enjoyed it. As I grew older, more mature and my hashkafos shifted, I no longer feel the need or desire to dance on Simchas Torah. Sure I learn Torah at times, I value my Torah education, I appreciate a good d'var Torah and I go to shiurim when I have the opportunity, but what I have come to understand is that dancing on Simchas Torah for men is very different than it is for women.

1)It's best described like at a wedding the dancing of the best friend vs. the close cousin. Sure the cousin comes a few times a year, you see each other at family gatherings, you send each other texts and emails, you have common relatives to talk about, and common experiences from getting together, but your best friend you see every day-whether at school or work, or just your block. You know each other's jokes, you know what makes each other sad/happy/laugh. It's just a different relationship and even for women who do have a regular learning every day, it's different because it's not an obligation for women the same way it is for men who have to figure out how to work it into their life one way or another, for women it's a "nice thing to do".

And even if the men are not baalei yeshiva, learning all day

2) Dancing on Simchas Torah is like a man's spiritual insurance policy for the year, it needs yearly renewal, whereas a woman was created differently and their neshamos need it once in a lifetime--at their wedding. For men who don't have a daily or all-day connection to Torah learning, Simchas Torah is almost like a "pep rally" getting them "in the mood" to be involved in Torah, more than it is celebrating their accomplishments in learning.

Being in a shul vs. being in a yeshiva you see the difference in approaches to Simchas Torah.
Your post makes me very sad that you see women's connection to torah as you do 😥
And you should also just know, there are many men out there that dont like simchat torah at all and dont find any connection to it at all and there are many women who find simchat torah extremely uplifting and not at all like a cousin relationship but like a best friend relationship.
Back to top

SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 10:49 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Do women dance the hakafot in your shul? They do in mine and the last year or two, the women were even given a torah to dance with.


Yes, many/most do, with a Torah.

I think its wonderful, but dancing, on Simchat Torah or otherwise, really isn't my thing.
Back to top

amother




Navy
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 11:20 am
miami85 wrote:
. . . what I have come to understand is that dancing on Simchas Torah for men is very different than it is for women . . . It's best described like at a wedding the dancing of the best friend vs. the close cousin. Sure the cousin comes a few times a year, you see each other at family gatherings, you send each other texts and emails, you have common relatives to talk about, and common experiences from getting together, but your best friend you see every day-whether at school or work, or just your block. You know each other's jokes, you know what makes each other sad/happy/laugh. It's just a different relationship and even for women who do have a regular learning every day . . . a woman was created differently and their neshamos need it once in a lifetime--at their wedding . . .


To quote Shabbatiscoming “Your post makes me very sad that you see women's connection to torah as you doCrying (and I’m part of the Yeshivish community - where dancing on Simchas Torah - with or without a Sefer Torah - is absolutely unthinkable and unheard of.)
Back to top

JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 11:21 am
Women dance hakafot with a Sefer Torah in my shul. In the morning, during Kri'at HaTorah, they go off to a separate room where multiple women lein from v'zot habracha, and everyone who wants an aliyah gets one. But they get an aliyah without a bracha, in accordance with the p'sak of Rabbi Avi Weiss. They just say a pasuk. Still, it's a nice thing to do.

At this point in my life, I can't imagine going to a shul where all of this wasn't encouraged. That said: I myself don't dance with a Sefer Torah, and I don't line up to get an aliyah, because it's not a real aliyah, since women don't make a bracha. My connection to Torah is more cerebral -- that's the Litvak part of me -- and I get much more pleasure from learning Tanach or Gemara in depth than from dancing or getting an aliyah. Learning Torah is also much more meaningful to me because I do it in some form every day, or at least several times a week. I'm not one of those who get highs from once-a-year celebrations. But different strokes for different folks and of course I think it's important to encourage everyone's participation as much as possible.
Back to top

JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Sep 23 2021, 11:23 am
What is the argument against women dancing without a Sefer Torah? Don't women dance at other occasions?
Back to top
  Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next  Last >> Recent Topics

Page 3 of 7 View latest: 24h 48h 72h


Post new topic       Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Succos

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Shul Secretaries
by amother
14 Tue, Nov 30 2021, 10:35 am View last post
Chanukah Segulos for women from the Kedushas Levi
by amother
2 Sun, Nov 28 2021, 11:53 am View last post
Iso of area with heimish shul in Tom's river/Jackson.
by amother
7 Sat, Nov 20 2021, 11:54 pm View last post
Inspirational speakers for women 32 Fri, Nov 19 2021, 1:08 pm View last post
Yeshiva week - separate men and women water activities?
by pearled
3 Thu, Nov 18 2021, 1:26 am View last post