Study shows vaccination and masking don’t work to stop Covid

amother

Ballota

Sun, Oct 10 2021, 6:04 pm

Right op the fed governments policies are not reflective of current facts on the ground.

southernbubby

Sun, Oct 10 2021, 6:38 pm

This says that vaccinated people are less likely to spread Covid if they were given Pfizer or AstraZeneca:

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CORONAVIRUS
Vaccinated people are less likely to spread Covid, new research finds
British scientists examined how the Pfizer-BioNTech and the AstraZeneca vaccines affected the spread of the virus if a person had a breakthrough infection.
Image: A healthcare worker administers a dose of a Covid-19 vaccine in Miami on Aug. 5, 2021.
A health care worker administers a dose of a Covid-19 vaccine in Miami on Aug. 5, 2021.Eva Marie Uzcategui / Bloomberg via Getty Images
Oct. 1, 2021, 4:39 PM EDT
By Akshay Syal, MD
People who are vaccinated against Covid-19 are less likely to spread the virus even if they become infected, a new study finds, adding to a growing body of evidence that vaccines can reduce transmission of the delta variant.

British scientists at the University of Oxford examined national records of nearly 150,000 contacts that were traced from roughly 100,000 initial cases. The samples included people who were fully or partially vaccinated with either the Pfizer-BioNTech or the AstraZeneca vaccines, as well as people who were unvaccinated. The researchers then looked at how the vaccines affected the spread of the virus if a person had a breakthrough infection with either the alpha variant or the highly contagious delta variant.

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Both vaccines reduced transmission, although they were more effective against the alpha variant compared to the delta variant. When infected with the delta variant, a given contact was 65 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated with two doses of the Pfizer vaccine. With AstraZeneca, a given contact was 36 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated.

The risk of transmission from a breakthrough infection was much higher if someone had received just one dose of either vaccine.

The study was posted online Thursday and hasn’t yet been peer reviewed. But scientists not associated with the research said the findings were credible.

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“It’s the highest quality study we have so far on the question of infectiousness of vaccinated people infected with delta,” said Dr. Aaron Richterman, an infectious disease physician at the University of Pennsylvania, who was not involved in the research.

Susan Butler-Wu, a clinical microbiologist at the University of Southern California, called the study “well performed,” especially because it reflects real-world transmission since it tracked spread among close contacts.

Using cycle threshold (Ct) values, the researchers found a similar level of viral load in unvaccinated and vaccinated people who were infected with the delta variant, backing up prior studies. Even so, people who were fully vaccinated were still less likely to infect others.

“Transmission is much more complex,” Butler-Wu said, meaning the Ct value is just a snapshot in time and doesn’t reflect the entire course of illness.

Merck says its antiviral pill reduces COVID-19 hospitalizations and deaths
It's likely that people who have been vaccinated clear the infectious virus from the body faster. A previous study from Singapore had found that although levels of the virus were initially the same in those infected with the delta variant regardless of vaccine status, by day seven, levels of the virus dropped quickly in those who were vaccinated, which may reduce the ability to spread illness.

There is emerging evidence that even though cycle threshold values may be the same regardless of vaccination status, people who are vaccinated may have less infectious virus in their bodies, potentially reducing transmission. Richterman pointed to a recent pre-print from China that found a large reduction in transmission in those who had received two doses of vaccine, compared to the unvaccinated.

Vaccines have the ability to prevent transmission of the virus in two ways, he said. The first is by preventing infection altogether. The other is by reducing the amount of infectious virus should somebody get sick.

“People who have been vaccinated will have immune systems at the ready that can coat the virus in antibodies much more quickly than unvaccinated people who have to build up an immune response,” Richterman said.

Protection against transmission wanes
The new study showed that protection against transmission seemed to wane over time, however. After three months, people who had breakthrough infections after being vaccinated with AstraZeneca were just as likely to spread the delta variant as the unvaccinated. While protection against transmission decreased in people who had received the Pfizer vaccine, there was still a benefit when compared with people who were unvaccinated.

Since antibody levels also tend to decrease over time after vaccination, a reduction in protection against transmission is to be expected, Richterman said.

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“We know that the amount of antibodies circulating in the blood decreases over time after vaccination, even though the immune memory remains durably robust and is still able to prevent infections, particularly severe infection,” he said. “These circulating antibodies that are immediately available probably play some role in preventing transmission if infected, so I don’t think it’s surprising to see some reduced protection against transmission over time.”

Richterman and Butler-Wu agreed that while community transmission remains high, masks and testing remain important.

“We need to combine our vaccines with other measures to reduce how much virus we get exposed to by things like masking and testing,” Butler-Wu said. “Additive measures is the name of the game here.”

Richterman agreed.

“While there may be a level of vaccination coverage high enough where other interventions like masking and distancing aren’t needed, we certainly aren’t there yet in many parts of the U.S.," he said.

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Akshay Syal, MD
Akshay Syal, MD, is a medical fellow with the NBC News Health and Medical Unit. Follow him on Twitter @AkshaySyal

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wiki

Sun, Oct 10 2021, 7:55 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Do you have any evidence or data to support this claim that the vaccinated are less likely to get Covid or that some people are more of a risk than others?

Here's a study that offers statistical data as evidence that vaccinated individuals are less prone to Delta variant Covid infection than unvaccinated individuals: https://www.medrxiv.org/conten.....260v1

amother [ OP ] wrote:

It’s unbelievable how on this thread alone, after being shown a study that proves the exact opposite, this baseless claim has been repeated so many times.

OP, you're getting frustrated because people are talking right past you, and they're doing that because the study that you linked did not show what you claim that it shows. Yes, it shows data that people who are vaccinated can, in some settings and some populations, spread Delta variant around efficiently. No, it does not show that vaccinated people have identical propensity to spread Delta variant as unvaccinated individuals. The study that you linked does not offer parallel data about a control population.

amother

Sun, Oct 10 2021, 10:21 pm

wiki wrote:

I doubt there is any study available that can accurately compare the vaccinated vs. the unvaccinated in regards to the Delta variant, since by the time the Delta variant was the predominant variant spreading, most countries conducting such studies already had disproportionately high vaccination rates. This disproportion is a limitation in any study that attempts to analyze the difference in two groups in which both should be of similar size.

There are other studies such as this one that show a greater infection rate among the vaccinated compared to the unvaccinated, but again, in a cohort of mostly vaccinated people:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volum.....2.htm

That being said, the study you linked to did not contain comprehensive analytical data such as the number of vaccinated individuals or the number of unvaccinated individuals, so it’s unclear why you chose to link to that study to back your claims. It does mention that protection from infectious transmission wanes at 12 weeks which renders most of the vaccinated in the US today as equally immune to Covid as the unvaccinated.

miami85

Sun, Oct 10 2021, 10:23 pm

If masks work so well, why haven't they worked until now?

amother

Ballota

Sun, Oct 10 2021, 10:25 pm

It’s like Marxism and communism we just weren’t trying hard enough yet.

DrMom

Sun, Oct 10 2021, 11:49 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

You linked a CDC report describing incidents of vaccinated people contracting the Delta strain at some large gatherings in Massachusetts.

The authors conclude, "... data from this report are insufficient to draw conclusions about the effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines against SARS-CoV-2, including the Delta variant."

OP, if you want to argue that vaccinations don't reduce covid, why do you keep citing random articles that do not support this viewpoint?

amother

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 12:30 am

DrMom wrote:

Firstly, they are scientific studies - specifically on the subject of breakthrough infection - not “random articles”.

Secondly, the next sentence in the study after the one you quoted is:
“As population-level vaccination coverage increases, vaccinated persons are likely to represent a larger proportion of COVID-19 cases.”

This is exactly the disclaimer I made when linking to this study. It is also the overall point I was making in my last post: We may never have sufficient data to draw 100% reliable conclusions when we are dealing with populations which are predominantly vaccinated. That’s because there won’t be a control group with a cohort similar in size and demographic.

That doesn’t mean we can’t derive from these studies real-world evidence that breakthrough infections are occurring with the Delta variant in large numbers among the vaccinated. There is strong evidence that both the vaccinated and unvaccinated share similarities in susceptibility for Covid infection and therefore, my original assertions are supported by these studies, among others.

There is a distortion of the facts being propagated by the media in order to lead the public to believe that it is the unvaccinated who are the ones who are getting and spreading Covid. The vaccination mandates affording privileges and rights exclusively to the vaccinated with the implication that these mandates are keeping the public “safe” from the unvaccinated is more of a propaganda tactic than science-based public safety measures.

DrMom

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 4:21 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Secondly, the next sentence in the study after the one you quoted is:
“As population-level vaccination coverage increases, vaccinated persons are likely to represent a larger proportion of COVID-19 cases.”

This is exactly the disclaimer I made when linking to this study. It is also the overall point I was making in my last post: We may never have sufficient data to draw 100% reliable conclusions when we are dealing with populations which are predominantly vaccinated. That’s because there won’t be a control group with a cohort similar in size and demographic.

Statistically sound studies on vaccine efficacy against the Delta variant have been conducted on large populations in the US, the UK, and Israel. There are plenty of unvaccinated people available to construct large control groups.

In fact, a new study just came out in France just today - the largest study yet, with 22M subjects (11M vaccinated/11M unvaccinated) Is that control group large enough for you?

They formed pairs matching an unvaccinated individual with a vaccinated counterpart from the same region and of the same age and relations, tracking them from the date of the vaccinated person's second jab to July 20.

https://www.ynetnews.com/healt.....kszrt

Quote:

Massive EU study shows vaccines prevent severe COVID illness, even from Delta variant
French survey among 22 million people over the age of 50 found those who had received jabs were 90% less likely to be hospitalized or die, confirming observations from Israel and its vast inoculation campaign

Published: 10.11.21, 08:33

Vaccination is highly effective at preventing severe cases of coronavirus, even against the Delta variant, a vast study in France has shown.

The research published Monday -- focusing on prevention of severe COVID and death, not infection - looked at 22 million people over 50 and found those who had received jabs were 90 percent less likely to be hospitalized or die.

The results confirm observations from the U.S., the UK and Israel, but researchers say it is the largest study of its kind so far.

Looking at data collected starting in December 2020, when France launched its jab campaign, the researchers compared the outcomes of 11 million vaccinated people with 11 million unvaccinated subjects.

They formed pairs matching an unvaccinated individual with a vaccinated counterpart from the same region and of the same age and relations, tracking them from the date of the vaccinated person's second jab to July 20.

...

amother

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:14 am

DrMom wrote:

I don’t know if you read my earlier posts or even the title of my op. Never did I say that the vaccine doesn’t prevent hospitalization or death in those infected. There is overwhelming evidence that it does. What I did say, in several different posts, and this is the entire point of the op, is that there is no evidence that I have yet seen that shows that the unvaccinated are more likely to be infected with or to spread Covid to others. The general viewpoint in the US, which has developed as a result of mandates and the influence of the media, is that the unvaccinated are a danger to others. I looked through the studies posted on the CDC’s website and studies linked in various news articles, but couldn’t find any that back up this claim that it is the unvaccinated who are to blame for Covid spreading.

If you were to argue that they are still a threat because they are crowding the hospitals and draining them of resources, then you would need to explain why you don’t share the same anger and hostility to those who engage in dangerous recreational activity. About 600,000 people are injured per year while skiing and about 40 die. That’s just one sport. How about smoking and drinking? About half a million people die each year from smoking and 100,000 from alcohol related deaths. Do we fire smokers or drinkers or ban them from public places? No, we ban the activity - not the person - where and when it poses a threat to others.

Unvaccinated people are no more a threat to others than the vaccinated, and that is a fact. It’s time for people everywhere to stop perpetuating that lie.

Amarante

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:26 am

miami85 wrote:

If masks work so well, why haven't they worked until now?

Masks actually do work well as studies have shown.

However masks are not 100% infallible nor are the people who wear them 100% infallible.

Different masks have different levels of safety - KN95 are the most effective - followed by surgical masks - followed by cloth masks. Not all cloth masks are created equal either.

And the fit of the mask also has an impact on how effective a mask will be especially if terms of the KN95.

Also there are some studies that indicated that viral load might have had an impact on the severity of the disease so that filtering out some amount of virus would mean a lower viral load. Which also would mean that if one is social distancing and avoiding areas where there is a higher viral load, one would have less chance of becoming ill or severely ill as applicable.

Statistically those places in which there is (or was) greater mask compliance AS WELL AS following other safety protocols such as social distancing and avoiding problematic situations like crowded interior spaces to the extent possible had lower per capita rates of infection.

Anecdotally I live in a community and associate with people who wore masks and were extremely careful about safety protocol. Even now with being fully vaccinated, we wear masks unless we are among other people who are fully vaccinated AND who we know are also careful about who they associate with. Do you know how many people I know how have gotten COVID or have died - NONE K/H

southernbubby

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:39 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

The study that I posted shows reduced transmissibility in vaccinated people for as long as the dose remains protective.

amother

Plum

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:41 am

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

This is moving the goalpost. In the early days of convincing everyone to get vaxed, they never said anything about milder versions, they said it would protect you from contracting or transmitting. Does no one even remember that? It wasn't even a year ago.

That was the media/ political spin. The drug companies themselves never made such claims. But nobody wants to be bothered to read. And if you "do your own research" and do read up on things you're a conspiracy whack job.

amother

Ballota

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 10:44 am

Exactly.

And there seems to be no accountability or responsibility taken by establishment figures who continue to spout the same old same old despite mounting evidence to the contrary.

And contradict themselves left and right repeatedly. With ridiculous comments like "oh you must have taken my quote out of context". How many times can that fly.

Spinning out of control thats for sure.

How stupid do you think everyone is. Elitism. Shameless.

DrMom

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 11:01 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I have no interest in defending US public health policy. Most of it makes no sense to me, and the implementation is either designed to deliberately irritate people, or was just poorly thought out.

Hard data showing a higher infection rate among unvaccinated persons:

Data that is collected every day, 2-3x/day in Israel shows that the infection rate among unvaccinated persons is higher than among vaccinated persons. You can check it out your self at the Min of Health's official corona dashboard. You can see the case rate per 100,000 persons within each group for both groups.
https://datadashboard.health.g.....neral

amother

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 11:25 am

DrMom wrote:

The link you provided led to a blank page, so I’m not sure if the problem is with the link or on my end.

In any case, that may be the situation in Israel. In the UK, the latest data shows that the vaccinated are testing positive for Covid in higher numbers than the unvaccinated, as you can see in Table 2 (page 13): https://assets.publishing.serv.....0.pdf

SixOfWands

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 11:46 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

And yet the rates of those presenting for emergency care, and dying, is magnitudes of order higher among the unvaccinated than among the vaccinated. Figure 2, pges 17-18

amother

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 11:50 am

SixOfWands wrote:

And yet the rates of those presenting for emergency care, and dying, is magnitudes of order higher among the unvaccinated than among the vaccinated. Figure 2, pges 17-18

Yes it is. But that’s not the topic of this thread.

amother

Blonde

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 12:01 pm

wiki wrote:

Mangoes and oranges, my dear.

In the USA in places where vaccination rates are high, case rates and hospitalizations and deaths in the past season have been far, far lower than they were last fall.

In the USA in places where vaccination rates are low, case rates and hospitalizations and deaths in the past season have been far, far higher than they were last fall.

No, this is incorrect. Places where vaccination rates are higher also have higher cases and deaths than the same season last year.

Maybe there are confounding factors. But the rates are higher in the more highly vaccinated regions.

amother

Blonde

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 12:04 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Sources for any of what you're claiming happened?

With quotes from experts, not just some random dude on twitter, and without qualifications like "against this strain of the virus" or "in initial trials" re: the effectiveness of the vaccine.

I honestly don't know how to respond to this. Which part are you questioning? That the original claim was the vaccines are 97% effective?