Financial protection for mothers and daughters

ilvmommyhood
Guest

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 4:28 pm

Wasn't it the Lubavitcher Rebbe who said every man should have a life insurance policy in case G-d forbid he passes away and leaves a wife and family behind? That it was a segulah for long life.

Some would say its living in a very dreary neg. state- preparing for one's G-d forbid early death. Guess the Lub. Rebbe didn't see it that way or he wouldn't have said it.

So yes, sometimes we have to prepare just in case G-d forbid as a segulah that it shouldn't happen!

Tefila

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 4:30 pm

Quote:

Wasn't it the Lubavitcher Rebbe who said every man should have a life insurance policy in case G-d forbid he passes away and leaves a wife and family behind? That it was a segulah for long life

Thats what I heard too though from someone who was selling life insurance never botherd to verify Confused

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 4:32 pm

hisorerus wrote:

I'm sorry, but cleaning help gets paid more per hour than I do in a skilled job. Admittedly, no one wants to be a cleaning lady, but I hope nobody wants to be divorced either!

let us see,

Income

$10/hour (max here),
9 hrs/ day =
90*6 = 540/week = 2160/month

expence

Rent - 1 bedroom apt $1000/mo
Phone - min - $25/ mo
Electric - min $30/mo
Food - $150/ week *4 = $ 600/mo
total expence is $1655

Now, we have $345 to pay tuition/ babysitter, buy clothing, do any repairs in the house.
Oh, and transportation to get to/from work.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 4:35 pm

hey, mommyhood, nice 2 c u!! Wink

roza

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 6:18 pm

she also can work in Wal-mart or Homedepot

Last edited by roza on Tue, Nov 08 2005, 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

hisorerus

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 8:38 pm

Rent: $750 (small apt- yes, even in Crown Heights)
Food: $0 (get food stamps, or if kids, WIC)

stem

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 9:20 pm

Hisorerus, it sounds like you are saying that a (maybe large) family who was living comfortably in their own home, will now have to live in poverty in a small apartment, their mother working 9 hours a day as a cleaning lady to support the family if CH"V the father should be niftar. How horrible for the family who just had a tragedy of losing their father and breadwinner to now have to live like this when their mother could have prepared herself with a profession in her back pocket. Why is that better than preparing our daughters to be able to fend for themselves should the need ever arise??

hisorerus

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 9:34 pm

If it's a large family, NO job will provide them with a beautiful house and a stay-at-home mother. Your salary increases with... experience! She can start with a base salary in a store, take gov't help, and in a few years she can get promoted. I don't think that ANYTHING she does before marriage will enable her to comfortably support a family. As I pointed out, learning accounting or law will mean she needs to go back to school anyhow because things drastically change in most careers.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 9:49 pm

hisorerus wrote:

Rent: $750 (small apt- yes, even in Crown Heights)
Food: $0 (get food stamps, or if kids, WIC)

Ok, let's re-calculate

Income

$10/hour (max here),
9 hrs/ day =
90*6 = 540/week = 2160/month

expence

Rent - 1 bedroom apt $750/mo
Phone - min - $25/ mo
Electric - min $30/mo
Food - $50/ week $ 200/mo
(wic & food stamps do not cover everything)
Now, let's factor in the babysitter.
1 child $4/ hour *9hrs/day - $36/day *6 = 216/week= $865/month
total expence is $1870

we still didn't buy any clothing, did not pay for transportation, and didn't factor in any miscelanious expences, such as home repairs, etc.

avigayil

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 10:46 pm

The fact that these low-paying are are even being handed out as serious options is ridiculous.
And yes, our rav (Lakewood smicha), said to get life insurance. And yes, rabbanim do encourage girls to go into career focussed seminaries. Otherwise, they would not offer them.
There are also other rebbeim that say women shouldn't do any of this. You pick what you want.
We live outside N.Y. , but years ago a family lost their father suddenly and a letter went out to the whole community asking for funds. And his poor widow had no means of supporting them.

In our community it is simply the way of the world for women to have some career training/backround. Also, with larger family, B"H', extra funds are needed to pay for things like school and even medical expenses.
If anyone here feels strongly about women not learning career skills, I can forward you the names of almonos who need your help.

chen

Wed, Nov 09 2005, 10:28 am

ForeverYoung wrote:

Rent - 1 bedroom apt $750/mo
Phone - min - $25/ mo
Electric - min $30/mo
Food - $50/ week $ 200/mo
(wic & food stamps do not cover everything)
Now, let's factor in the babysitter.
1 child $4/ hour *9hrs/day - $36/day *6 = 216/week= $865/month
total expence is $1870

we still didn't buy any clothing, did not pay for transportation, and didn't factor in any miscelanious expences, such as home repairs, etc.

If you're talking NY, you have way underestimated the expenses, too. Where do you get a sitter for $4/hr??

chen

Wed, Nov 09 2005, 10:30 am

avigayil wrote:

If anyone here feels strongly about women not learning career skills, I can forward you the names of almonos who need your help.

(Insert smiley with big thumbs-up)

Emuna

Wed, Nov 09 2005, 10:43 am

I just posted on the "boys seen as more important than girls" thread and this seems so connected, it's sad. It's so sad that the backbreaking, 24-7 heart-and-soul work of raising children is not given a monetary value - like a doctor, lawyer, or at LEAST a solid teacher's salary.

Perhaps THIS is the reason that women are viewed "inferior" throughout the world? Perhaps it's because we can't earn lots of money if we're home doing what we SHOULD be doing, which is raising our children? Whomever makes the most $$ wins? Is this why all the old-timers (from the other thread) want baby boys born into the family?

Wed, Nov 09 2005, 11:22 am

Besides that fact that being a cleaning lady is very draining physically it is also extremely humiliating - who would want to have THAT as their back up plan? Isnt' it worth it to have some kind of a degree that would allow our daughters to live dignified? Besides, if cleaning houses was a more lucrative business wouldn't you think more people would go into it instead of suffering though years of schooling? Rolling Eyes

And having bitachon does NOT mean not doing any hishtadlus...In our times one person's salary even if he is a doctor or a lawyer is usually not enough to support a family with more than one or two kids who are in yeshiva. So even if things go well, and one is not in an abusive relationship (lo aleinu) - it is possible that at some point there will be a need for additional income. I dont normally get involved in such debates(which usually leave everybody with the opinion they started with), but I happen to feel strongly about this. In our society it is considered to be "not frum" to get degrees, yet women are expected to marry learning guys and have big families with *maybe* a teaching degree. - This might be tangential but I think it's the same attitude - oh, have bitachon and dont do anything else. Worst case, so you will have to babysit or teach in the local bais yaakov. Chalila, don't go to college....I am supporting a husband in kollel but without my degree and a professional job I honestly dont know how people live. And going into such a marriage l"chatchila expecting to be on welfare and food stamps also doesn't sound too inspiring to me. No doubt EVERYTHING comes from Hashem (one can have the best degree and still no money) but you need to do some hishtadlus so Hashem "can" send down His bracha......Just my 2 cents.

Motek

Thu, Nov 17 2005, 12:15 pm

chen wrote:

this [thread]is in response to amother whose husband has pushed her and hit her (pregnancy and abuse thread).

chen wrote:

Did I say that [saving her from an abusive marriage] was the sole purpose? Would the idea be more palatable if I had said: All women should have marketable skills to enable them to pay yeshiva tuition and give tzedaka?

Seems to me that you are in favor of girls learning how to support themselves regardless as to whether they will live happily ever after with their husbands or not. That this thread is ostensibly about being able to get out of bad marriages but it is really about your belief that women nowadays need to work out of their homes. That abused women was not the point at all. Is that correct? If not, please clarify.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Thu, Nov 17 2005, 1:44 pm

chen wrote:

If you're talking NY, you have way underestimated the expenses, too. Where do you get a sitter for $4/hr??

I was being generous, so to say, in order to underline that cleaning job will not do it.

chen

Thu, Nov 17 2005, 3:03 pm

Motek wrote:

Seems to me that you are in favor of girls learning how to support themselves regardless as to whether they will live happily ever after with their husbands or not.

Got it in one.

Motek wrote:

That this thread is ...really about your belief that women nowadays need to work out of their homes.

Right the first time, wrong the second. I didn't say I believed women need to work, inside or outside their homes. I said they needed to know how to earn a living so that they would be able to do so--permanently or temporarily--shoud circumstances make it necessary. Such circumstances include, but are not limited to:

Never getting married (R"L it happens)
widowhood (ditto)
needing to escape an abusive relationship (men zolln nit vissn)
disability, financial collapse or other loss of parnassah on part of husband (ditto)
unanticipated disasters,such as catastrophic medical bills or loss of home due to fire, flood, hurricane (ch”v)
and even happy, wonderful, blessed events, such as having a large family and marrying off children (ken yirbu)

Motek, do you fear that the potential for being self-supporting is inimical to marriage? that having a marketable skill implies lechatchilah that a girl is planning to leave the husband that she doesn’t even have yet? Why not think of it rather as a form of emergency preparedness, like learning self-rescue or CPR? Surely learning these skills does not imply that one is hoping to have to use them! On the contrary, one doesn’t expect to, and fervently hopes never to need to—but should one need to, one is prepared. Furthermore, earning a living--or simply contributing to the family finances-- and having a happy marriage are not mutually exclusive. Shlomo Hamelech's Aishes Chayil has her finger in many pies: real estate, retail, textiles, viniculture--yet batach bah lev baalah.

Motek wrote:

abused women was not the point at all. Is that correct?

The point of this thread was expressed in its title, financial protection for mothers and daughters. abused women were only one case in point. I split this thread off the pregnancy and abuse thread precisely because the topic was tangential to the abuse issue as well as being nogea to women in general. there are many other reasons—see above—why women might need to earn a living.

My thesis is not, chas vechalilah, "give your daughters marketable skills so that they can leave their husbands"; nor is it "every woman should work outside the home." it is "give your daughters marketable skills so that they will be able to earn a living should it be necessary.”

When Yaakov Avinu was returning from Charan and learned that Eisav was headed his way, he did three things: davened for peace; sent Eisav gifts; and split up his camp. Of course he davened--he had faith in Hashem. Nevertheless, he knew that Hashem expects us to help ourselves, too, and not stand around with farleigteh hent. So he tried to pacify Eisav by sending him gifts. Still, Yaakov was not naive and knew that if Eisav was really on the warpath, gifts might not have the desired effect. So he prepared for war! (See rashi.) He split up his camp so that just in case chas vechalilah eisav would attack the family, at least part of the family would escape unharmed. The lesson to be derived from this is: "have faith in Hashem, but take out insurance just in case."

ilvmommyhood wrote:

Wasn’t it the Lubavitcher Rebbe who said every man should have a life insurance policy in case G-d forbid he passes away and leaves a wife and family behind? That it was a segulah for long life.

Some would say its living in a very dreary neg. state- preparing for one’s G-d forbid early death. Guess the Lub. Rebbe didn’t see it that way or he wouldn’t have said it.

So yes, sometimes we have to prepare just in case G-d forbid as a segulah that it shouldn’t happen!

Halevai we should all be guaranteed long, blissful marriages, healthy children and independent means. Until life gives us such guarantees, I will continue to maintain—your objections notwithstanding-- that all women should know how to earn a living.

I think we are being matriach the imamother tzibbur by continuing to debate this point. Clearly you stand by your philosophy and I stand by mine. What say we agree to disagree and put this issue to bed in all its variations on all the threads in which it appears?

Motek

Thu, Nov 17 2005, 3:09 pm

does that mean your questions to me were rhetorical?

ShiraMiri

Thu, Nov 17 2005, 3:47 pm

SV wrote:

Very well said! Thumbs Up

I agree completely that as women, we need to do our part to make sure our family has a safety net. Part of that is making sure that both ourselves and our spouses have life insurance. What SAHMs do is VERY expensive to replace if a man ever should ch'v'sm be in such a situation.

Girls in my community are now having the opportunity to learn skills such as computer programming and medical billing in a seminary setting. Many women have turned to ebay to make extra money. However, there is no greater safety net than education.

Without the degree, you often can't even get a foot in the door. When I first married, I had just finished graduate school and was supporting my DH who was a fulltime student. For many years I was the main breadwinner. When DH finally graduated, I continued to work from home. It took all those years of working onsite to finally earn the priviledge to work from home. They never would have allowed it until I proved myself. I started out working 1 day from home, than 2, and so on.
My younger kids don't even know that I have a job outside the house. I am always home and driving carpool! LOL!

Situations like mine require education, work-place diplomacy, luck, and experience. I would have a tough time supporting my kids on my own. But I could do it. Saying that one could never get a job to support a large family on one's own anyway, so why even try, is a cop-out. Figuring that a woman will just rely on tzedaka and government hand-outs is a defeatest and lazy attitude.

We all must do our part to ensure the financial security of our families. Tzedaka should be a last resort - not one's financial plan for the future.

Motek

Thu, Nov 17 2005, 4:13 pm

SV wrote:

In our times one person's salary even if he is a doctor or a lawyer is usually not enough to support a family with more than one or two kids who are in yeshiva.

okay, that's what I thought and what Chen clarified.

this is just another thread on working women and why they have to work and why they can't raise their children themselves

I should have realized long ago that it wasn't about - just in case her husband dies, becomes disabled, or is abusive. That the thread is not about insurance for a tragedy.

Glad that was clarified.

Don't see the point in starting a new thread on this when you know it's on the forum in "all its variations".

Quote:

If anyone here feels strongly about women not learning career skills, I can forward you the names of almonos who need your help.

avigayil - what do you think of the rabbis who do not promote career focused seminaries? do you respect their view?