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Forum
-> Parenting our children
-> Our Challenging Children (gifted, ADHD, sensitive, defiant)
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amother
Turquoise
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 Mon, Jan 17 2022, 4:45 pm
| amother [ Lemon ] wrote: | | It isn't a "diagnosis". | the kid needs to be above a certain iq to be gifted. I’m wondering who you all used for the evaluations
ETA or do you mean they’re just really smart and not actually gifted?
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amother
Cognac
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Mon, Jan 17 2022, 5:22 pm
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Although giftedness is a "diagnosis", generally speaking it isn't important to actually get the evaluation. Most experienced teachers can pick out a gifted kid a mile off.
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amother
Maple
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Mon, Jan 17 2022, 5:36 pm
| amother [ Turquoise ] wrote: | the kid needs to be above a certain iq to be gifted. I’m wondering who you all used for the evaluations
ETA or do you mean they’re just really smart and not actually gifted? |
Testing IQ is very tricky a lot of it has to do with schooling and what they were exposed to. Frum kids generally don't test accurately.
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amother
Turquoise
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Mon, Jan 17 2022, 5:50 pm
| amother [ Maple ] wrote: | | Testing IQ is very tricky a lot of it has to do with schooling and what they were exposed to. Frum kids generally don't test accurately. | So there’s no point in evaluating?
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amother
Turquoise
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Mon, Jan 17 2022, 5:51 pm
| amother [ Cognac ] wrote: | | Although giftedness is a "diagnosis", generally speaking it isn't important to actually get the evaluation. Most experienced teachers can pick out a gifted kid a mile off. | Not necessarily. Depends on the kid’s personality.
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amother
Maple
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Mon, Jan 17 2022, 5:54 pm
| amother [ Turquoise ] wrote: | | So there’s no point in evaluating? |
Right. That's what I was told by many psychologists. I had to evaluate my kid because school insisted. I could see based on her scoring verses how much she actually knows in real life that it didn't match up. She really wasn't familiar with the type of testing and she hadn't ever been exposed to a lot of it. Yet they still determined she was above average in general but they refused to give a gifted diagnosis. They aren't fans.
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amother
Turquoise
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Mon, Jan 17 2022, 5:59 pm
| amother [ Maple ] wrote: | | Right. That's what I was told by many psychologists. I had to evaluate my kid because school insisted. I could see based on her scoring verses how much she actually knows in real life that it didn't match up. She really wasn't familiar with the type of testing and she hadn't ever been exposed to a lot of it. Yet they still determined she was above average in general but they refused to give a gifted diagnosis. They aren't fans. | Yes I was told my daughter is well above average but didn’t qualify as gifted and I’m convinced that she is. I scheduled an evaluation with someone who specializes in gifted kids but it’s in NY and will be a huge hassle. And they may not evaluate properly because of her background? Probably not worth it then.  I just thought it would be useful to have on record.
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amother
Cognac
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Mon, Jan 17 2022, 6:04 pm
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An evaluation is useful when you are unsure what's going on. IQ tests are notoriously inaccurate for frum kids. Check out giftedspace.com - there's a lot of info and you can email questions.
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amother
Aconite
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Tue, Jan 18 2022, 7:45 am
| amother [ Turquoise ] wrote: | the kid needs to be above a certain iq to be gifted. I’m wondering who you all used for the evaluations
ETA or do you mean they’re just really smart and not actually gifted? |
One common assessment is the CogAT. It's administered in a group setting like the SAT. I believe it can be administered via pencil/paper or computer, but not sure. A big upside of the CogAT is that it's usually available for free somewhere, as it is used by many public school systems for entry into gifted programs. The downside is that many kids don't do their best in a group-administered timed test.
The WISC is also commonly used. It is administered by an evaluator 1-on-1. This may be a better option for kids with ADHD or trouble focusing, because of the interactive component. The downside is that, if not covered by insurance, having this assessment done will cost at least a couple hundred dollars.
Your child does not need to be familiar with the test materials beforehand. In fact, the score is considered less accurate if a child has practiced beforehand.
Being frum, in and of itself, should not hurt test performance. Having English as a second-language or being extremely sheltered could affect performance. The best way for you to judge whether this would be an issue is to look at the question types for each test on the internet yourself. Some of the question types should definitely not be affected, such as the ones where the child is asked to manipulate shapes. But I don't know about the verbal reasoning portions, those could be an issue. If your child's school has some secular education, your child's first language is English, and your child reads non-Jewish books, then I don't see why they would do any worse on the assessments.
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amother
Lightgreen
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Tue, Jan 18 2022, 12:04 pm
Following...
I find that DD (almost 12) is quashing her true self in order to fit in.
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amother
OP
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Tue, Jan 18 2022, 1:49 pm
| amother [ Lightgreen ] wrote: | Following...
I find that DD (almost 12) is quashing her true self in order to fit in. |
Same! ...or trying yo quash her true self in order to fit in but not doing great at hiding it, or at fitting in It's so hard. Still thinking about what the next step should be.
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amother
Wallflower
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Tue, Jan 18 2022, 1:58 pm
| amother [ Turquoise ] wrote: | the kid needs to be above a certain iq to be gifted. I’m wondering who you all used for the evaluations
ETA or do you mean they’re just really smart and not actually gifted? |
I feel like it’s extremely common to label a kid gifted when they are actually just bright and academic minded. There are hard and fast criteria for determining gifted ness. I’m not understanding why a frum kid would have more trouble getting the gifted label. It’s essentially an IQ test, based on capacity and not knowledge.
Gifted is a type of special education. Many times gifted children do POORLY academically because they need accommodations and enrichment, but in Jewish schools they often won’t get them.
Your child can be very very smart, spend all her free time reading about archeology, have trouble relating to her peers, and NOT be gifted.
Life is actually easier if she is NOT gifted.
Signed,
Profoundly gifted mommy
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small bean
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Tue, Jan 18 2022, 2:04 pm
Why are your kids squashing themselves to fit in.
My daughter is unique. I would not call her gifted but she loves to learn and is self taught on many interesting topics. She also loves animals and has tremendous passion there.
She has no social issues. Her friends love that she is so comftorable with herself and talks about things they have no interest in. They find her entertaining and funny.
Maybe your kids need to learn to be comfortable with themselves and their unique interests. They only need you to give them a place to explore their interests and friends to enjoy their differences.
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amother
Cognac
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Tue, Jan 18 2022, 2:14 pm
If your child is struggling because they can't find common ground with their peers, find school super boring and are emotionally sensitive, then it needs to be dealt with. If you are unsure about why this is happening, look towards evaluation. If you know that this is because they are intellectually ahead of their age group, look into the gifted side.
The reason some frum kids do less well on evaluation is because they have not necessarily been exposed to the type of thinking used in some evaluations. Many parents teach towards the gifted evaluation so that they can get their kids services. Most frum people don't do that.
The other factor is the cost. I paid privately for evaluation for one of my kids because the school demanded it. I forked out a fortune to be told that he is profoundly gifted with an IQ of over 160 (no exact numbers because he is off the charts). Well, honestly? I knew that. Nothing else specific came up with the evaluation.
There is another issue in the frum communities where people are scared of any type of label, even one which could be construed as positive. There are many reasons for this and good reasons but not relevant when a kid is suffering.
Finally, many of the frum schools are financially strapped (witness teacher salaries) and don't have the capability to focus on the needs of this specific population.
Having said all that, if you as a teacher want to help gifted kids in your classroom, and there are gifted kids in almost every classroom, there are simple and super effective techniques you can make use of.
In the general population, the term gifted is applied to between 5 and 8% of kids. There is no reason why in our classrooms the numbers should be less! Make a cheshbon - out of 20 kids at least one will be gifted. At least. So why aren't we seeing that in our schools?
a) because they've been labeled as adhd or behavior issues
b) because there is a lack of awareness of the problem
c) because of a lack of funding
d) because even though people know they are there, they push off their needs with "they've got everything! let's focus on the kids who really need help"
If people are interested in an anonymous support group for this, I am happy to organize.
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amother
Lemon
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Tue, Jan 18 2022, 2:45 pm
| amother [ Wallflower ] wrote: | I feel like it’s extremely common to label a kid gifted when they are actually just bright and academic minded. There are hard and fast criteria for determining gifted ness. I’m not understanding why a frum kid would have more trouble getting the gifted label. It’s essentially an IQ test, based on capacity and not knowledge.
Gifted is a type of special education. Many times gifted children do POORLY academically because they need accommodations and enrichment, but in Jewish schools they often won’t get them.
Your child can be very very smart, spend all her free time reading about archeology, have trouble relating to her peers, and NOT be gifted.
Life is actually easier if she is NOT gifted.
Signed,
Profoundly gifted mommy |
If she's feeling bored, misunderstood, etc, then why quibble over titles? She needs her needs to be met.
And yes, I agree that it's a form of special education.
Signed,
Mommy who may or may not be gifted
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amother
Wallflower
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Tue, Jan 18 2022, 3:16 pm
| amother [ Lemon ] wrote: | If she's feeling bored, misunderstood, etc, then why quibble over titles? She needs her needs to be met.
And yes, I agree that it's a form of special education.
Signed,
Mommy who may or may not be gifted |
Because gifted doesn’t mean bored and misunderstood ….
I’m not quibbling. Im just saying gifted is a thing. It doesn’t mean the same thing as smart and bored.
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amother
Turquoise
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Tue, Jan 18 2022, 3:21 pm
| amother [ Cognac ] wrote: | | If people are interested in an anonymous support group for this, I am happy to organize. | I’d appreciate a support group. I’m convinced that 3 of my kids are 2e. One has been diagnosed with adhd but not giftedness and I don’t know whether I should be pursuing the gifted label or if it wouldn’t make a difference anyway? And the other 2 are doing well in school right now and I don’t want to rock the boat, but they’re both young and I know things get harder when they’re older. I just have no clue what steps to take that won’t break my budget because I already pay for so much out of pocket. And I looked into that organization that was recommended upthread but it’s Israeli and I need something Lakewood centric.
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amother
OP
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Thu, Jan 20 2022, 1:20 pm
Okay I made an email address: beintouch613@gmail.com
Anyone interested in getting our around 12 year old DDs together to talk/learn science or just make friends with likeminded peers, or if you have suggestions as to what we should do, please be in touch!
(I am not looking to organize a mother's support group, so this email address is not for that. Anyone who wants to do that can feel free to open a new thread/email address about that topic.)
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amother
OP
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Thu, Jan 20 2022, 1:28 pm
| small bean wrote: | Why are your kids squashing themselves to fit in.
My daughter is unique. I would not call her gifted but she loves to learn and is self taught on many interesting topics. She also loves animals and has tremendous passion there.
She has no social issues. Her friends love that she is so comftorable with herself and talks about things they have no interest in. They find her entertaining and funny.
Maybe your kids need to learn to be comfortable with themselves and their unique interests. They only need you to give them a place to explore their interests and friends to enjoy their differences. |
Maybe this is not what you intended to convey, but I don't think mothers or girls should be blamed for their feeling uncomfortable being very different from their peers. We give DD plenty of space to enjoy her differences but in a society like this one, where the majority of their classmates have a lot in common and they don't fit the mold, it is very understandable that they would be trying to 'squash themselves to fit in'.
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