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Do you want to know when HS girls are cheating on your tests
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amother




Cyan
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 5:54 pm
If there is for sure cheating going on, why can’t the teacher be made aware, without names, that it’s an issue? Why should the girls who work hard and are honest suffer if this is so preventable and against emet? Yes, they need to prepare for the real world, blah blah blah, but they are in a bet yaakov setting, they should be able to reap the benefits of being is such an environment. Yashrut, honesty, emet, truth.
Some of these responses boggle my mind.
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amother




Impatiens
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 6:04 pm
Once and for all- cheating is NOT rampant. There exists a possibility of some, a small, minor number of girls, who might, maybe, try for various reasons to cheat.
It is frustrating and bothers.
Teachers know what they need to do.
Parents job to be mechanech.
Teachers job to help with the chinuch.
No one likes a snitch.
Read smokey and not shana rishona comment. They write nicely.
Good night. Hatzlacha with your dds.
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amother




Topaz
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 6:12 pm
I so appreciated when I was a student the teachers who gave different versions test to every class. I never understood how girls weren't embarrassed to come ask what questions the test had.
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amother




Aster
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 6:25 pm
amother [ Ruby ] wrote:
Cheating demonstrates a much larger problem with our education system than in the cheaters. Grades are being used to rate the student's value rather than to improve education.


Didn't read the rest of the thread but wow, this!
It's a problem on both ends. Why are schools creating a culture where the value attributed to a girl depends on her academic capabilities? And on parents, why do you make kids think that good grades are the be all end all of a successful school career? Our children have so much more to offer than their academic capabilities and success. Also, nobody likes a goody two shoes snitch kind of girl. She or her mother can complain to the school, though it's probably best if it comes through the mom and names aren't mentioned. It's the teacher's job to figure out who is cheating, not the mothers or student's job to tell. Also the patterns at play matter. If a child is consistently busy with all the wrong other kids are doing she won't have many friends. Not in school and not later on in life either. Simply because nobody likes self righteous people. Most of the times, they turn into judgemental adults and life is messy and complicated and complex and I think we can all agree that we don't hang out and feel comfortable around people who are always ready to jump at every mistake we make.
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amother




Moonstone
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 6:42 pm
amother [ Cerise ] wrote:
The reasons she cares are: first of all, because it is wrong. Second of all, because she spent many hours studying for the test. She worked very hard to earn her grade. It's very frustrating to see others getting a good grade without putting in the effort.

If I were the teacher, I probably would want to know so that I could put more precautions and proctoring in place.

Of course at the end of the day, there is an Eye watching and an Ear listening and people will be held responsible for their actions...


I’m not condoning cheating, but the bolded is rubbing me the wrong way.

My daughter too spends many hours studying and putting in a lot of effort and sometimes fails anyway.

And sometimes a girl that puts in zero efforts gets a perfect grade. Are we supposed to be upset if a girl that puts in zero effort gets a perfect trade while ny daughter works so hard and fails anyway?

Tell ur daughter to take care of her own and not look at the next girl.
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amother




Tangerine
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 7:34 pm
amother [ Moonstone ] wrote:
I’m not condoning cheating, but the bolded is rubbing me the wrong way.

My daughter too spends many hours studying and putting in a lot of effort and sometimes fails anyway.

And sometimes a girl that puts in zero efforts gets a perfect grade. Are we supposed to be upset if a girl that puts in zero effort gets a perfect trade while ny daughter works so hard and fails anyway?

Tell ur daughter to take care of her own and not look at the next girl.


That’s an absurd comparison. The girl has the right to feel frustrated if she’s putting in the work and others are scamming the system. That being said, when I was in high school, we knew there were girls that cheated, but I don’t think we paid them any mind. The teachers (and the class) knew who the good students were. I don’t think it would have occurred to me to tell on someone. And I certainly wouldn’t have involved my parents.
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amother




Obsidian
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 7:39 pm
Yeah I used to cheat in high school. My home was an unsafe place and the 4 years of high were the worst years of my life. I had an eating disorder, was going through trauma and abuse daily, and school and studies were not the first things that I cared for. Survival, and making sure my house was a safe place for my siblings was my top priority.

Yes, my school knew what was going on. But I was going for therapy so all is good right? No, going to therapy as a teenager my brain couldn't handle anything but processing my feelings and what I discovered in therapy. So when midterms and Finals came around, I studied. Of course I did. But my brain refused to let it be taken over by historia dates and pesukim and random facts bec it had much more pressing issues to focus on.

So I cheated. I knew I wasn't an A student, so I didnt fill in all the answers, but if I wouldn't have had looked at my papers under my desk (I took perfect notes in every subject) I would've failed every test.

Just to give you an understanding of the other side. And I did teshuva already, dw.

Btw when I went to seminary, I was finally able to focus on myself and I studied and actually got 80-90's without cheating.
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amother




Seagreen
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 7:41 pm
I teach and watch the class well while they take an exam. I actually became known as the teacher who "spots" cheaters because of my vigilance, but I never take action. I give over the info to the principal so she can inform other teachers to keep their eyes open. If the girl demonstrates another cheating incident, then the principal speaks to her.

The principal has a whole serious talk with her. She makes her aware of the importance of being trustworthy, that as the woman of the house iy"H, her ne'emanus will determine the halacha. Without specifying TH, she explains how the whole family will rely on her to do things right, even when nobody is watching. How important it is to be honest to Hashem.

Now that is chinuch.
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amother




Almond
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 7:46 pm
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
I teach and watch the class well while they take an exam. I actually became known as the teacher who "spots" cheaters because of my vigilance, but I never take action. I give over the info to the principal so she can inform other teachers to keep their eyes open. If the girl demonstrates another cheating incident, then the principal speaks to her.

The principal has a whole serious talk with her. She makes her aware of the importance of being trustworthy, that as the woman of the house iy"H, her ne'emanus will determine the halacha. Without specifying TH, she explains how the whole family will rely on her to do things right, even when nobody is watching. How important it is to be honest to Hashem.

Now that is chinuch.
Thank you for proving that there are teachers who care and that it can be done if a teacher views it as important.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 8:01 pm
amother [ Moonstone ] wrote:
I’m not condoning cheating, but the bolded is rubbing me the wrong way.

My daughter too spends many hours studying and putting in a lot of effort and sometimes fails anyway.

And sometimes a girl that puts in zero efforts gets a perfect grade. Are we supposed to be upset if a girl that puts in zero effort gets a perfect trade while ny daughter works so hard and fails anyway?

Tell ur daughter to take care of her own and not look at the next girl.

It’s not the zero effort that’s the issue, it’s taking someone else’s work and passing it off as their own, and then reaping the benefits.
(I quoted you because I’m too tired to go back and look for the other comment)
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yiddishmom




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 8:14 pm
amother [ Impatiens ] wrote:
So what? It’s not my job to stop the cheating. If a bas yisroel feels the need to cheat, and in HighSchool, that’s her choice and problem.
Maybe something is going on at home and she couldn’t study,
maybe she has overbearing parents who will yell at her if she fails,
Maybe she will collapse if she fails,
Maybe her image as a “ A” student simply cannot be tarnished,
Maybe she is someone who likes to cut corners,
Maybe she is a cheater or liar( I can’t and won’t believe this),so she will learn later in life that people catch on and don’t respect such persons.
Leave it alone.
And if a student is shvach in class but aces her test, you think a teacher doesn’t know she cheated?


I think this is one of the nicest responses on here.

This is basic dan lkaf zechus/ understanding that we don't understand everyone's challenges.

Perhaps a teacher can try to stop the cheating, but it should still come with an understanding that the girl is probably troubled/ going through something.
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amother




Lightpink
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 8:27 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
DD., in HS is going crazy. It bothers her that she sees people cheating on midterms. Shes sure. Does she keep her mouth closed? Risk becoming a snitch? It bothers her because she works so terribly hard and cant stand to see others getting away with murder...
Whats the verdict?

PS
Teachers, or the proctors you hire:

Please watch your classes while test taking. Do whatever you have to do to prevent this. Its not right.


I cheated alot too. I had no choice! I studied for hours too n still had fear of failing my tests😬
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amother




Chambray
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 8:32 pm
amother [ Moonstone ] wrote:
I’m not condoning cheating, but the bolded is rubbing me the wrong way.

My daughter too spends many hours studying and putting in a lot of effort and sometimes fails anyway.

And sometimes a girl that puts in zero efforts gets a perfect grade. Are we supposed to be upset if a girl that puts in zero effort gets a perfect trade while ny daughter works so hard and fails anyway?

Tell ur daughter to take care of her own and not look at the next girl.

YES! Thank you!
I cant take tests. Ive helped thousands of women get their masters. I really dont care that they are probably makeing waay more money than me. In
fact id be upset if someone didnt go for it just because I cant.
Here your talking high school shes getting the same diploma as them... To qoute country yossi "theres a word I want to teach you its called fargin"
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amother




Moonstone
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 8:34 pm
amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:
That’s an absurd comparison. The girl has the right to feel frustrated if she’s putting in the work and others are scamming the system. That being said, when I was in high school, we knew there were girls that cheated, but I don’t think we paid them any mind. The teachers (and the class) knew who the good students were. I don’t think it would have occurred to me to tell on someone. And I certainly wouldn’t have involved my parents.


Why? Why is it frustrating for her?are they taking something away from her?

She should feel pride that she did it on her own. I don’t see what the other girls cheating has any relevance to her, unless there’s an award that they’re winning over her.
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amother




Moonstone
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 8:36 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
It’s not the zero effort that’s the issue, it’s taking someone else’s work and passing it off as their own, and then reaping the benefits.
(I quoted you because I’m too tired to go back and look for the other comment)


I get why cheating is wrong. I don’t get why this is op daughters business. They’re not taking anything away from her.
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amother




Dodgerblue
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 10:07 pm
amother [ Moonstone ] wrote:
I get why cheating is wrong. I don’t get why this is op daughters business. They’re not taking anything away from her.


Of course they are taking something away from her.
Being an Honors student in a school where everyone cheats is no honor. Word gets round, people know your grade means nothing.

Plus many many teachers do grade on a curve, even unofficially. And the student who got 85% on the test, and who is the star student in fact, is actually treated as a mediocre student because all the cheaters got 95.

In any case, as a teacher of decades, I am appalled at this thread. I have noted that cheating is no less common in frum schools than in secular (just like, lehavdil, cheating on a spouse). It's awful. YOu would expect more.

When I used to work in a frum school, the principal asked us to leave the room during an exam so that the pupils could see we trusted them. Right. Don't we have that saying, lehachshil iver? You don't put a stumbling block in front of a person. I don't get why frum communities are so hysterical that a magazine with a picture of a three year old girl doesn't enter the home (stumbling block, you know), but don't mind leaving a packed classroom to do a test without proper supervision.

Unless of course cheating on tests is no big deal in the frum world and they literally turn a blind eye.
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 11:08 pm
Some of the responses here are shocking.

People spend thousands of dollars to send their daughters to a school that instills Torah values, yet shrug off actions that violate basic Torah prohibitions against theft (if you cheat, you can deprive a hardworking person who didn't cheat out of a job or seminary acceptance, etc.*) and deception.


* R. Moshe Feinstein Z"L wrote a responsa about this.
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amother




Emerald
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 11:27 pm
I did not read all replies.

I was the student that studied for hours and hours and was still only able to get the 80%. So yes, sometimes I did cheat. It's definitely wrong to cheat. But please! no, BH no kid snitched on me about cheating. I deserved the 100% for effort, while some got the 100% without needing to study. I tried so so hard! So if after studying for HOURS, I finally sit down with the test paper and I still don't know it, I just felt so so terrible. I couldn't afford a big F !
I want to add that even when cheating, you can't possibly cheat all the answers! So the cheater won't get the 100%.
It would give her away one or two or even three answers.
I'm not encouraging cheating, but if a girl cheats, have rachmanus! Do not tell anyone about it.

OP, if your dd can get a 100% after studying, teach her to fargin other kids to also get a 100.
Just like the brilliant kid gets a 100 without studying, let the F student get the 80 with studying.
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amother




Seablue
 

Post Sun, Jan 16 2022, 11:35 pm
Cheating is wrong period.
As a weak student in school I an hurt by the idea that the shvach child is the one cheating sometimes we study the hardest and put in our all!! Some times it helps and we succeed sometimes no matter what we fail but I never never never cheated.
But honestly there nothing unfortunately you can do but tell your dd welcome to the real world and people do the wrong thing but don’t let it drag you down.
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amother




Midnight
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 12:04 am
I don't understand either side of this dispute.

I did not go to a jewish highschool... and I never really felt the need to cheat, because I got good grades without cheating and without studying much. I just paid attention in class, and that was enough.

However, I felt honor-bound to help other students who needed it and gladly let them copy (if they felt they could profit from it) or went to do homework or prepare exams with them, if they asked, or corrected their homework if they asked. Once I did homework twice, because I liked the assignment, (write a poem) and gave the second one to a student who had not done it. He got a better grade than me, and I was very glad and proud about that, and I also agreed, because I also thought the second version was better than the first that I had handed in. I was very glad for my co-student, since the good grade really did help him.
When my little sister told me she had done something similar, given her homework to a student who had not done it so he could hand it in, and he got a good grade and she was happy about it, I was very proud of her.

So I don't really understand the cheaters, although I feel for all those who said they had to study a lot AND cheat, and even more for those who had a difficult life at home....

But I even less understand OP's daughter who is so irked when others cheat.

From a pedagogic perspective, I think students can learn a lot when they cheat on tests. I think they will memorize answers better when they really feel a strong need to know them, and this might be a given at exams... so maybe they did not know the answers when they went into the exam, but they will remember them afterwards...

So, although I am not a teacher, I think there is some merit in closing their eyes when students cheat, especially in cases where students are just less gifted than the rest of the class...

I'm not yet quite clear about that, but it definitely crossed my mind...
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