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France Riots

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Pearl

Mon, Nov 07 2005, 9:03 am

thanks for your post en0ra! and welcome!

djellaba is this long robe, usually with a capucion (sp) muslims wear.
http://www.bartleby.com/61/84/D0308400.html

adorable

Mon, Nov 07 2005, 10:38 am

I hate it when people take something that the Rebbe told one person and generalize it and make it seem like it pertains to everyone.

as far as I know, the only place that teh Rebbe PUBIBCLY announce that shluichim should not go is Poland.

Lubavitch has been in France for years and years

Quote:

why are there shluchim then in chevron I once opened the the igros and it was talking to this guy and said to him he doesn't advise anyone to go to chevron because it is not safe but then again their are shluchim out there.

the same reason why he encouraged people to fight for the land and not give it up, that eretz yisroel is the safest. that was a hora'a to that specific person not to everyone living there.

please dont misinterpret the Rebbe's words and please dont sday things from te top of your head without verifying it.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Mon, Nov 07 2005, 12:28 pm

a quick reminder to the lbaviches here - not everyone is lubavitch on this site & knows who a rebbe is or which rebbe you're talking about

hardwrknmom

Mon, Nov 07 2005, 1:55 pm

adorable wrote:

Whoever said the Rebbe said no Shluchim should go there? All I mentioned was the fact that the Rebbe did not like france.

sarahd

Mon, Nov 07 2005, 1:57 pm

en0ra - what you're saying reminded me of the 1960's riots in Harlem. The cousins in Israel called my parents all worried to find out if they were okay...Brooklyn is so far away, physically and mentally, from Harlem that they hardly knew anything was happening. Same thing, I guess, in Paris.

Anyone know where the riots around Strasbourg are taking place? I hope far from the Jewish area.

And by the way, en0ra, there was violence in the Marais district last night. That's Jewish, isn't it?

Rivka

Mon, Nov 07 2005, 5:02 pm

These riots are mad and it's showing the Palestinian, Arab loving French that even they are affected by them.
I was watching the news and they had two official type guys trying to explain why these riots are happening and one of them has to bring in the poor Palestinians in the occupied territory, being treated badly by the oppression of the Israeli Gov, so these Muslims feel the same. They have lost all hope and now all they can do is smash up cars and we all have to feel sorry for them.
If scallies rioted in Salford, I doubt anyone would have pity or explain the reason they are doing it is because they are poor and they have lost hope in everything they do because they don't feel equal to the rest of the country...they don't get an education above the age of 14 (because they ditch school) and then they get pregnant and have babies and don't know what to do. I think people would be saying that they are rioting coz they are a bunch of low life scum and deserve to be sent to detention centres and the parents who let their kids get into such a way are just as much to blame.

en0ra

Mon, Nov 07 2005, 8:43 pm

sarahd wrote:

And by the way, en0ra, there was violence in the Marais district last night. That's Jewish, isn't it?

Not exclusively. The marais branches out from Beaubourg museum - across the homosexual area- Hotel de Ville which is Paris' City Hall - three streets called the "jewish area" right up to the bastille and Republique and on the other side... the seine. Bastille and Republique have a lot of suburban riff raff that come and hang out (large metro-subway intersections)...along with Beaubourg-Chatelet which is where 2 Rer (express trains that go to the subarbs as well as certain stations in paris) pass through. We're obviously going to have cases of overexcited "suburbians" coming to the capital to cause grief. Was it the jewish factor that made them do it in that area? I'm not too sure , I'm not even sure it was done in a street close to the "jewish quarter" itself. It could of been many "reasons"

en0ra

Mon, Nov 07 2005, 9:19 pm

Rivka wrote:

Lol thats what the french get for flooding these peoples' heads with pro-palestinian media

As for the rest of the problem, there is blame to be taken and it's not about feeling sorry for anyone. You can't shove people in a dark corner, feed them images all day of poor irakis, poor palestinians etc etc and NOT expect them to wake up one day and bite your face off.
You can't say they aren't discriminated against when it's obvious they are.
Hey my name isn't too french sounding, and I can tell you how many times I jumped on the occasion of saying my name was JEWISH and not arab when asked during job interview (and the sigh of relief on the interviewers face).
I just believe, from what I've witnessed around me and sometimes been confronted with myself, that the french have made a timebomb. It didn't have to be this way... but to avoid the problem we should of thought of better integration solutions for the generations before these kids. Now is too late.
How can you blame parents' that never learned to read in morocco, algeria or tunisia when they can't even communicate correctly with their childs' teachers!
When they understand that a teacher isn't happy, they smack their kid and tell him to wise up and if he doesn't get it , they smack harder because it's all they can do
These parents' cant help with homework, a good part of them can't even read! They're completely "out of it"!
They have NO clue to what their kids are really living because they come from a different world!
You almost wonder why there isn't at least basic language skills required to have french citizenship!

I wonder what kind of example is going to be set when hundreds of these kids arrested get judged.

RivkaS

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 1:23 am

en0ra wrote:

Hello everyone,

I was asked to participate in this forum precisely concerning the riots happening in France.

Good Morning Enora,
I am happy to see that she really speeded up your admission - so first of all: WELCOME Flower

in a minute I will read your long post but just to mention someone said - I think it was Pearl - that it will spread to other European capitals - it spread already, I heard it about Berlin (! that is a word I always hear in the news) and some other places throughout Europe, and I agree with the others: it is only a question of time until it turns against the Jews C"V.
Have a nice day
Rivka

Pearl

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 3:24 am

Quote:

How can you blame parents' that never learned to read in morocco, algeria or tunisia when they can't even communicate correctly with their childs' teachers!
When they understand that a teacher isn't happy, they smack their kid and tell him to wise up and if he doesn't get it , they smack harder because it's all they can do
These parents' cant help with homework, a good part of them can't even read! They're completely "out of it"!
They have NO clue to what their kids are really living because they come from a different world!
You almost wonder why there isn't at least basic language skills required to have french citizenship!

I wonder what kind of example is going to be set when hundreds of these kids arrested get judged.

this is very true, and goes for all the main cities all over europe! some ppl live in (for example berlin) for over 30 years, and still don't speak german... it's asking for trouble!!!

en0ra

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 6:28 am

Pearl wrote:

this is very true, and goes for all the main cities all over europe! some ppl live in (for example berlin) for over 30 years, and still don't speak german... it's asking for trouble!!!

When France wanted to "assimilate" the jews into the republic (meaning avoiding any dissidence that might come from religion) Napoleon I made the "Consistoire" (beth din) . It's an institution that centralizes jews. That was its' whole purpose.
Even today, Consistorial rabbis are payed as state workers.
No jew was to feel loyalty to religion BEFORE loyalty to the republic, so Napoleon made french judaism a "republican institution". (Consistoire also take care of jewish schools etc etc... ensures that jewish schools follow the french school program)

It worked, jews assimilated all too well. It's only recently that the Consistoire has become orthodox .... and there is still much to be done (because even if sometimes they slack, it remains the OFFICIAL, centralized, Beth Din in france)

Was ANYTHING similar done for Muslims? Any official centralized institution in france? Nope.
No schools for muslims no nada. The republic has left Islam in the hands of loonies that improvise mosques in the project basements!
What do the french do to try to grasp some pseudo control? They ban head scarves lol.
Even I'M insulted by such a law and perhaps some ladies out here that prefer headscarves to wigs can understand me on this.

The french were SO asking for this! It's so pitiful it's almost humorous.

Like I said before, my life is fine here. No problem whatsoever BUT I've always thought that ONE DAY the french and the arabs would bite each others' heads off... and you know what? I don't think the arabs in france stand a CHANCE! Remember what the french did to jews? Do arabs think the french wouldn't do it to them? Have they forgotten the tortures and crimes of the french during the Algerian war?
Did they forget that Papon, the same man that deported Jews, in 1961, picked arabs off the street, tortured, murdered and threw hundreds of algerians' lifeless bodies into the seine river in paris!!???

Jews don't need to get out because living as a jew is hard here... jews need to get out soon so they don't get caught in the middle of the fight between arabs and the french lol.
Has ve Shalom , arabs will think we're "french brown nosers" and the French can't tell the difference between a N.african Jew and a N.african muslim unless the persons' name is "cohen" or "levy".

Motek

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 9:21 am

As Strongmom explained, the Rebbe has hundreds of shluchim in France. The Sinai Chabad school system in Paris has thousands of children in enormous campuses. As far as I can think of now, there is no country that the Rebbe told people to leave, not France, not South Africa.

supermom wrote:

I know a lot of jews that already imigrated to israel from france because of the horrible situation

isn't that brilliant! Because the Israeli government is doing sooo well in protecting its citizens from being blown up, shot at, stabbed, and shelled Rolling Eyes

It's hard to say who loves Arab terrorists more, the French or the Israeli government.

Quote:

what the Rebbe ACTUALLY said was in response to someone who asked him to send his Chasidim there and the Rebbe said he would not tell anybody to go there because when it comes down to an altercation between Jews and the Arabs, the Israeli police will side with the Arabs, which is exactly what happens of course. This does not mean that Chasidim cannot volunteer to be shluchim there or live there.

hardwrknmom wrote:

as a matter of fact- france was one place the rebbe NEVER liked.

got anything to back up that statement?

in addition to what was mentioned earlier about the Rebbe showing special affection to the French Jews and about the national anthem, the Rebbe spoke on Shabbos parshas Vayeishev 5752 about the spiritual revolution that has taken place in France.

The Rebbe referred to the yeshiva in Brunoy, France about which his father-in-law, the previous Rebbe said, "The foundation of the Tomchei Temimim Yeshivah in France is bringing immeasurable joy and spiritual satisfaction to our saintly forebears in heaven, the Rebbeim of the respective generations."

The sicha goes on to say how the 1st Lubavitcher Rebbe, the Baal Ha'Tanya greatly opposed Napoleon for spiritual reasons, but how since then, France has become spiritually refined.

Quote:

This began with various visits to France by the Rebbe Maharash (4th Lub. Rebbe) and later, more frequently, by the Rebbe Rashab (5th Lub. Rebbe). In the following generation the Previous Rebbe not only visited France, but moreover sent members of his family there as his emissaries. Ultimately, this process reached a peak when the Previous Rebbe, after having settled in America, established various branches of Tomchei Temimim, the Lubavitcher yeshivah, in France.

This final step has brought about a spiritual revolution and renaissance. As a result, many chassidic and other classical Jewish texts have been published in France, and thousands of Jews whose family origins are in other lands have discovered their Jewish roots in that country. Furthermore, we are now seeing Jews who have been raised in France and who have had the unique character traits of that country inculcated into their personalities take the initiative and dedicate themselves to expanding and broadening the activities of the Tomchei Temimim Yeshivah.

see:

http://www.sichosinenglish.org.....2.htm

for an adaptation of this fascinating sicha

supermom

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 1:21 pm

wow motek I am shock

you are like an open book

Motek

Thu, Nov 10 2005, 12:43 pm

en0ra wrote:

I feel as safe in paris as I do in NY.

Quote:

The Chief Rabbi of France, Joseph Sitruk, had decreed that French Jews are not to appear in public with their kipa showing, saying: "I do not want young people traveling alone on trains or the Metro to become easy targets for attackers."

while religious Jews in New York continue to appear in public places, even in non-Jewish areas, dressed as they please with no repercussions, boruch Hashem

here's an article by an American about his horrible experience on the subway in Paris:

http://www.aish.com/jewishissu.....s.asp

and yes, I know that horrible experiences take place in New York too.

supermom

Thu, Nov 10 2005, 2:20 pm

motek but you are forgetting in ny city you don't have to wear caps to hide your faith there is still freedom in ny than in france.

have you heard of the girl that was on the train and a couple of guys came up to her took her star of david and stuffed it down her throat?

how about this one people are scared to death to even stick up for themselves lest they get killed. there was a girl from our community that went to france to learn and while in the train station a guy comes up to her and spills his coffee on her shoes and her being that she has a mouth of her own started to give it to the guy when everyone around moved away from her afraid when she realized what was going on someone came and pulled her out to 'saftey' that is when she learned to keep her mouth quiet.

Motek

Thu, Nov 10 2005, 2:30 pm

I agree with you. I wasn't forgetting.

what's needed is a Paristinian State

Quote:

It's clear that the international community must force France to the negotiating table with these freedom fighters to begin the peace process that will inevitably lead to the creation of an autonomous, independent state of "Paristine."

read the full article for all the details Twisted Evil

http://www.wnd.com/news/articl.....47285

STRONGMOM

Thu, Nov 10 2005, 6:08 pm

I just feel I have to add that frum jews in france still go out with their yarmulka on their head and tzitzis out. True, there is a lot of antisemitism , not more than any other country in Europe. But you can still (so far) live your life as a proud jew.
Dont forget there are more jews in NY than in the whole France. You can not compare both. And yes NY and America in general are way more accepting towards other religions.
To conclude, the US press made a very big deal about theses riots. Yes,the situation in france is serious. But I think theyre 'rejoicing' somehow.

Motek

Thu, Nov 10 2005, 6:25 pm

STRONGMOM wrote:

To conclude, the US press made a very big deal about theses riots.

yet I read that the riots, I.e. intifada, is being downplayed in the news (don't want to badmouth Moslems, do we ...)

don't you think a "big deal" should be made when vilde chayos set ablaze nearly 1,300 vehicles and torched businesses, schools and symbols of French authority, including post offices and provincial police stations which affected hundreds of towns?

At the height of the violence last weekend, rioters torched nearly 3,000 cars in two nights.

Ruchel

Sun, May 07 2006, 7:13 pm

As a French Jew, maybe I can give a few explanations about what’s happening here.

First, France has the biggest Jewish community in Europe, the third one in the world after America and Israel.
80% are Sephardic, of North African origin, and most of them arrived after the end of the colonial era since they had “collaborated” with the French and as a reward got the citizenship and right to leave their country with the “occupant” in order not to be killed by Muslims. These Sephardim are mainly traditional, with some modern Orthodox, few are totally secular or ultra Orthodox.
20% are Ashkenazic, either of French origin or Polish, German... Most of them are either secular or traditional, with some ultra Orthodox and a few MO.
Although some make aliyah every year, you have arrivals of Swiss (shechita is forbidden there) or Italian Jews (Italian Jewry is dying due to assimilation) for example.

Yes, there is antisemitism, but saying that the Arabs are not its main source is ridiculous. The *French* either don’t care or find Judaism “interesting”. Although ultra leftists dislike Israel, too close to America to their taste, they don’t dislike *Jews*. As for right wing people... just think that their new "head" had a grandfather who was a rabbi in Saloniki.... And as far as I know, hard core Xtians don't accuse us anymore for Yoshke's death, they now attack Pontius Pilate, and actually I was one day in vacation in a tiny village (50 people!), and the only person that seemed to be interested in talking with us was the priest lol

(Since we're talking about priests, for one that converted Jewish kids during the war, how many suffered and died to hide them? I'm not even going into the Resistance thing from both "frum" and "frei" Xtians. If it wasn't the case, France would not have managed to save 75% of its Jews. Compare with other countries.....)

So, if you avoid Arab populated areas, you are fine and there’s no reason to be afraid, period. I never hide I’m Jewish, and I’ve never had any problem, not even with Arabs. And yes, unfortunately I’ve had one year to go to school in a very, very “Arab” area, and I was afraid of all the things I had heard... and well... nothing happened. One guy saw me

As for antisemitic acts... it is very good that they are reported so widely around the world, but why not talk about these things:
- on a whole, more churches than synagogues are burnt (3 against 0 during the riots if I remember well?)
- up to now, no Arab has peed in a synagogue c’v.
- up to now, no rabbi has been assassinated c’v while more than 2 priests have been this year.
- Yes, Ilan Halimi’s story is terrible. But why not report the fact that the same thing exactly happened to a [gentile] a few weeks after? And that a policeman was lynched? And that a dad was killed with bricks in front of his children because he told the Arabs to stop stealing their son’s bicycle?
- up to now, the girls gang raped by Arabs are never, ever Jewish and always, always Xtian.
- the story of the girl forced to swallow her magen david is an urban legend
- the “Jewish woman” attacked and on which “Arabs drew swastikas with their knives” was a crazy goya who did it to herself to get attention.
- the last time a synagogue burned, it was set on fire by someone who was discontent with the community. A Jewish someone. This story was more or less “ignored” by the French press, I thank them so much.
- the stabbed rabbi was indeed stabbed in his synagogue – but the guy who stabbed him and shouted “allah wakbar” to accuse the Arabs was.... another rabbi who was jealous. Ok... thanks for the huuuuge chillul hashem. I am eternally grateful that the French press also “ignored” this and that you only heard about it on Jewish radio/tv.

Just like not all French people are against Bush (actually 1 out of 3 was “very happy” he was re elected), not all French people are pro Arab (actually the neo fascist anti Arab candidate was second one in Presidential election).
Last thing, I agree with most of what Enora said, and there is definitely rejoicing in the way the riots were described. Shame on people for being happy about them.

batya_d

Sun, May 07 2006, 7:49 pm

Ruchel wrote:

The *French* either don’t care or find Judaism “interesting”. Although ultra leftists dislike Israel, too close to America to their taste, they don’t dislike *Jews*

Thanks so much for your fascinating post, Ruchel. I used to live in Germany, and the #1 question I get is "Did you find the Germans anti-semitic?" and I would say almost EXACTLY what you have posted above!! I also felt much more threatened by the large arab population that I ever did by the Germans (not that I liked the Germans in general or the German mentality, but this has nothing to do with anti-semitism)

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