Retroactive Annulment of Giyyur?

amother

Thu, Jun 12 2008, 1:59 pm

It's my biggest nightmare too.

I converted Conservative. Met and married my husband. Then I became interested in becoming more religious. I dragged HIM into becoming frum. After a couple of years I converted with an orthodox beis din - not chareidi but not ultra modern either. More "just plain frum". The beis din asked me numerous questions about my DH's commitment to frumkeit.

The absolute emes is that my DH would never have become frum if I hadn't poked and prodded him. He was outraged at first that my conservative conversion wasn't good enough and I had to really work to convince him that I had to do it again.

Since that time I've been shomer mitzvos. I KNOW that there are those who would say that since I was married my conversion is no good, regardless of how I've lived my life since then. I even asked a well-known (yeshivish) posek if I needed to do anything more. He told me not to worry about it, that the conversion is without question totally valid and that I should relax. I wonder if he'd say the same thing today given what is going on in Israel.

What more can I really do, though? My intentions were and are sincere. I didn't convert for my DH, I converted only after overcoming a great deal of opposition from him. Should we divorce now, after all of these years and all of these children, just so I can have a giyur that would pass muster unquestionably in eretz Israel (if there even is such a thing)? Surely that is not what Hashem wants - to break up a happy family. So, instead I toss and turn at night worrying about shidduchim for my children and whether we'll have difficulties then. I have a psak from somebody well-known, I live my life as a frum woman, and at some point I just have to have faith that Hashem will make it all work out okay. That's really all one can do, right? Trust Hashem.

chavamom

Thu, Jun 12 2008, 3:57 pm

amother wrote:

This is so scary for the converts out there! It's among my nightmares as a convert. And we wonder why converts worry about shidduchim or acceptance in the frum world, or feel like second class citizens sometimes!

Just knowing that there's always a possibility is frustrating and scary. (And yes, I know that the probability is small, but it's still there. That's the point--it might not be good enough at some point in the future.)

I don't know. Personally, I think that this is the boogy man being raised by people who have an interest in seeing non-frum converts accepted. I've known an awful lot of converts over the years and have been involved in sorting out "yichus issues" (through dh's job in a BT yeshiva) and dealing with the Bedatz of the Eida Charedis in Y-m. Across the board, the only ones who ever had a problem were the ones that they or the mother had an Orthodox sponsored conversion but weren't frum. And even then, they only had giyur lechumra (a "just in case" dunk) to be yotzei all shitos. Of course we had quite a few that they/their mother had a non-Orthodox conversion, but even then, if they were frum, the conversion was largely a formality. I understand the rabbanut can make more problems which is unfortunate.

amother

Fri, Jun 13 2008, 3:09 am

maybe ya'll can help me understand the article:

I posted on a different thread about how mil was converted orthodox in france, by a religious beit din. her father was jewish, mother wasn't. she grew up around a lot of jews and always felt jewish even though they didnt keep any mitzvot. there were not a lot of jews at the time so even though the bd knew that her intentions may not be on keeping mitzvot, she felt jewish and she technically wanted to be jewish, she underwent all the classes, et voila, became jewish.

dh became shomrei mitzvot around his bar mitzvah, and had asked 2 rabbis before we got married if his mom is Jewish, they said yes. dh is very convincing.

a few weeks ago, a friend of mine, a giyuress, tells me that the conversion may not be 100% kosher and to ask a rav.
dh will only do minimal mitzvot and he doesnt really like rabbis. he was very offended when I told him that we should look into it and agreed on one specific rabbi in my community. this rabbi does not deal with psakay gyur but he said that it sounds like the conversion is fine, she took on the responsibility etc. and that I have to be more careful with shalom bayit--- he told me that if dh only wants to do minimal mitzvot, than thats only what I have to do, like I can eat fruits with heter mechirah. etc.

so, now, please help me understand the article, did mil take on the responsibility and in fact become a jew or since her motives were not sincere, she is not jewish?

please help me!! thank you for reading.

HindaRochel

Fri, Jun 13 2008, 3:18 am

Let me tell a story that is somewhat related to this.
A young man went to a well known Rav and said: I just learned my mother had been married to a man (Jewish) before she married my father, and not get a kosher get. Am I a mamzer?
The Rav asked some questions, and said: "at that time and place the majority of marriages weren't kosher to begin with. You aren't a mamzer.

So the young man went and made inquiries and found out the marriage was indeed valid.

The Rav said "So what do you want me to do? NOW you are a mamzer.

Ask, and follow through. Don't go psak shopping ever.

Motek

Fri, Jun 13 2008, 2:31 pm

chavamom wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

But his arguement is the ritual surpasses the intent, that regardless of her intent the conversion is valid.

Edited to include the relevant sentence:

Quote:

The sources on giyyur cited below reveal the same ritual logic: Once giyyur has been performed, the motivation that led the Gentile to undergo that process is irrelevant.

IIRC, that is the shita of R. Moshe and many disagree.

Even if they are not presently and never were observant like the vast majority of R' Drukman's "converts" and those of giyur centers all over Israel that follow the same approach?

Can you find where R' Moshe says that?

sarahd

Sun, Jun 15 2008, 8:06 am

YESHASettler wrote:

I'd like an explanation as to how Eternal Jewish Family has been able to 'get away' with converting the [gentile] in an intermarried couple if 'converting for the spouse' can be a nullifying reason for a conversion.

There is probably a difference between someone converting in order to marry a Jew and someone who is already married to a Jew converting. S/he is probably not converting for the sake of marriage, since the couple is already married, so there's room to believe that the conversion is sincere.

chavamom

Sun, Jun 15 2008, 9:10 pm

sarahd wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

From what I've learned, this is exactly the reasoning used to allow those who are "married" to Jews to convert. Society considers them married, so they have no reason to convert in order to get married. In their eyes, they are married! It's only if they are convinced of Torah that they would believe they need to convert and remarry.

someoneoutthere

Tue, Jun 17 2008, 11:36 pm

In answer to some of the questions posted here:
(I'm an out-of-town shlucha and these have all cropped up and been answered by well respected rabbfonim)

-a child who converts does not necessarily have to announce anything by his/her bar/bat mitzvah. Even if by the time s/he gets to that age and not much is practiced in the home, so long as they don't renounce their yiddishkeit or become practicing xtians (for eg.) they are still Jewish

-converts who were converted remain Jews even if they revert to not keeping Torah, so long as there wasn't something blatantly assur with the conversion process- like a problem with the beis din itself or knowing the prospective convert was lying

-some converts probably should never have been converted- like the perso who really did it cuz she liked her Jewish boyfriend. But, once the Beit din converted them properly-they remain Jews.

-converting the non-Jewish spouse of a Jew is only done when they learn. EJL is based on the premise that these Jews have no intention of divorcing so why not take a shot at getting the spouse to convert properly? mind you, that takes commitment frome the Jewish spouse too.

In general, a convert standing on the steps of the mikveh on Tuesday can have every intention of keeping Shabbos. And then, when Shabbos arrives, their JEWISH Yetzer Hora gets in the way.....

Motek

Thu, Jun 19 2008, 12:07 pm

and so, if by their action immediately following conversion they show that they are not religiously observant, then that would seem to prove that they weren't sincere

I once heard a giyores, Chasida Flanders speak. When the rabbi was testing her and he asked her what muktza is, she was able to rattle off the 5 categories of muktza (muktza machmas mi'us etc.)! That showed she was SERIOUS about mastering Hilchos Shabbos!

someoneoutthere

Mon, Jul 14 2008, 12:47 am

Motek wrote:

someoneoutthere - you did not address the extremely common situation in which someone emerges from the mikva and does not keep even one Shabbos

if the new "convert" is not religiously observant from the start, how was this a conversion?

I most definitely did:

someoneoutthere wrote:

In general, a convert standing on the steps of the mikveh on Tuesday can have every intention of keeping Shabbos. And then, when Shabbos arrives, their JEWISH Yetzer Hora gets in the way.....

Again, the Rav doing the giyur needs to ascertain, to the best of his abilities, the sincerity of the prospective convert. That's part of the months (if not years) long process before the giyur. I know a giyores who loved davening before she converted. She would get up early, before the kids, daven with kavana etc. She converted and within a few weeks it got really tough. She suddenly had a yetzr Hora getting in the way. She says this herself.

A ger who never even keeps 1 shabbos...well, there is a major issue with the process by which he was converted. As someone who come in contact with people who've had 'problematic' geirusin quite often (shlichus in a small city) I can tell you that many questions have been asked to expert rabbonim, and the answers would surprise you. Once the giyur is done, and the person considers themselves fully Jewish, there is little that can possibly revoke that. Usually, the biggest complication with giyur is the beis din/ rabbi responsible for it. not the behaviour of the person afterwards.

Giyur is a matter of soul, it's not a degree that can be revoked or the like. And once the Jewish soul is in the person, it's stuck for life. Sometimes the question is if it ever got there, and often times, bdieved (after the fact and second best) the answer is it did.