S/o Menswear who decided this?

amother

Lightcoral

Tue, May 16 2023, 2:35 pm

I just find it interesting how not that long ago the only men wearing this white and black uniform were talmidei chachamim, not 16 year old boys in yeshiva....

This is a whole other topic. Definitely related though. Shouldn't we maintain a certain level of separation between those talmidei chachamim and average good people? Like if everybody is doing something "special", then there's nothing really special about it...

I'm saying this as someone who thinks kollel and limud hatorah is #1 priority. Not from an anti-learning perspective.

amother

DarkMagenta

Tue, May 16 2023, 3:01 pm

The 1960s and 70s were absolutely not the basis for today's ideas about tzniut. The late 60s-early 70s were the miniskirt era. "Hem checks" in school started around 1967. Sleeve lengths weren't even a thought, it was all about the hemline and whether you'd still be ok if you grew a quarter inch overnight.

In every era there are immodest fashions. When hemlines fall, so do necklines. If blouses aren't tight, skirts are. If hemlines and necklines are both concealing, clothes are cut to exaggerate feminine curves. It's called "shifting erogenous zones" and is a fashion industry trick to render existing wardrobes obsolete and "require" the purchase of new ones. The theory they quote is that when certain body parts are on ubiquitous display, they become boring and men want to see what's hidden. The fashion industry obliges by hiding what was on view and exposing what was hidden.

That doesn't explain the sine-wave fluctuations in the width of men's neckties, lapels and hat brims. That must be purely to generate sales, as most women are not known to be turned on by the width of a tie.

amother

Aconite

Tue, May 16 2023, 3:07 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Im just teying to say that the original fedora, small brimmed hat is NOTHING like the black hats the charedi men wear today.

In the US most yeshivish boys and young men today are wearing small brimmed fedoras like the old style. That's what's in now.

Reality

Tue, May 16 2023, 3:10 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Im just teying to say that the original fedora, small brimmed hat is NOTHING like the black hats the charedi men wear today.

And I disagree. The men in my family who wear hats, their hats don't look all that different from d!ck Tracy. And the more stylish ones are wearing a traditional small brimmed fedora.

amother

Seagreen

Tue, May 16 2023, 3:12 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

My point is that what the chstedim wear is NOT a fedora. And of coutse smaller brimmed hats have been in style for a while. For at least a hundred years, at least. But not what the charedim wear.

Chareidi men in America, at least, wear relatively small-brimmed hats.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, May 16 2023, 3:15 pm

Reality wrote:

And I disagree. The men in my family who wear hats, their hats don't look all that different from d!ck Tracy. And the more stylish ones are wearing a traditional small brimmed fedora.

In the shul that I grew up in, in america, the men who were yekke wore small brimmed hats. And other charedi/yeshivish men, the brims were bigger.
But enough about hats. Not the point of the thread. Lets move on.

amother

Seagreen

Tue, May 16 2023, 3:23 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Yes. That was many years ago. today chareidim in America wear small brimmed fedoras.

amother

Apricot

Tue, May 16 2023, 3:39 pm

amother OP wrote:

I don't get it. Who decided that a certain time frame represents what men should keep wearing? Just because they wore that in Europe what makes it better for now?

I get it, we want to be dignified and tznius but why does that mean white shirt black pants?

We don't have the same concept for women. Women dress modestly whole incorporating current fashion. Why is this different for men?

on the flip side, why is it ok for extra long sheitels tight fitting clothing, knee length skirts and sheer pantyhose to be attire for an orthodox woman?
In other words, once you drop things that seem to be "just" societal norms, you usually end up on a slippery slope.

amother

Blush

Wed, May 17 2023, 12:15 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

When you say many years ago, how many are you talking?

Dh recently bought himself a new hat because his 20 year old hat from when we got married was looking rather dated with its wide brim. His new hat has a narrow brim. To be clear, the old hat didn't just start looking dated, it's been dated for a while but that just goes to show how little dh cares about such things.

Chickensoupprof

Wed, May 17 2023, 6:37 am

amother Hyacinth wrote:

We do the same for the women, albeit in a different time period. We decided that the 1960-1970s was the ideal tznius styles, and we use that as a baseline to measure everything that follows.

Except where we want to change up history, of course. We pretend that our parents didnt wear knee socks till age 12, and ignore that their skirts just barely covered their knees (have my Satmar Williamsburg parents wedding albums as evidence) and that little kids didn't wear short sleeves till about age 5-6. We vehemently deny that of course, and pretend that the new extremism is our long-held tradition.

This, my husband, has old pictures of Jewish life everywhere where the men wear straw hats and he now has a panama straw hat and he wears it the whole summer because Borselinos is according him puur gasmiyus and he jokes that the orignal style wear straw hats LOL

Oh and my husband wears only suits and white shirts for shabbos and yom tov. He never wears jeans but just normal trousers with a shirt and he has al leather jacket and once he was buying a sefer in a sforim store and they were explaining the sefer to him and he felt judged. He told the seller: 'I'm buying a sefer you know my face you know my family why are you explaining me the sefer and suggest I should have one with English translation?' It became almost torah min har sinai that this is the dress code while it was not and it is not...

gottago

Wed, May 17 2023, 6:37 am

amother OP wrote:

Firstly a colored shirt and any dark pants (even beige) would be just as dignified.

Secondly why do men need to dress like they are visiting dignitaries all the time while women don't? Are you always ready to greet a queen/ king?

The answer to your question here is the answer to your bigger question!

Yes! We are always ready to greet our King! That's exactly why our men dress formally at all times!

Many women do too. In my circles, we don't wear denim, or sneakers, or other clothing considered "shleppy". Most yeshivish or chasidishe women dress more formally than the general culture.
We get more variety because in every culture women have more ways to dress formally.
Look at a state dinner, or a fancy law firm... most men are wearing dark suits and white shirts, the women have more options but are equally classy and sophisticated.

PinkFridge

Wed, May 17 2023, 8:24 am

amother Crocus wrote:

But the hat is an anachronism. In western society, it's actually rude to wear a hat indoors. And nowadays in the US, only gangsters and p-imps wear felt fedoras. It's not respectable at all. It was in the 1940s and 50s, but now it sends a completely different message.

Male Chassidim and yeshivish men simply got stuck in the uniform of when their brand of Judaism was invented. I don't know why.

A friend of mine described teaching in a culturally Jewish school, where a teacher didn't like students wearing hats. (Obviously not Borsalinos.) The friend told her coteacher that she would never tell a Jewish student to remove his hat.

So cultural norms only go so far.

Lehavdil, even the pope wears a hat.

Re the fedoras, really?

PinkFridge

Wed, May 17 2023, 8:25 am

goldfish1 wrote:

I heard an interesting podcast about this on Halacha Headlines - about where the dress code comes from and why we keep it. I agree with the Hashkafa of a dress code per se but I do think the 'box' has gotten smaller and smaller and I think a LOT of it has more to do with fashion and wanting to fit in than following the dress code.

I walked past a bunch of chassidish men the other day who were all wearing EXACTLY the same shoes (and it was noticeable bc they were interesting shoes). Why are they all wearing these chassidish shoes? For tznius reasons? Kedusha purposes? No juts because that's what everyone else wears. Because for them it's fashionable. (that's not against chassisdim it was just an example).

Because chassidim post the war were driven to rebuild, and exactly as things were.
Where those who came before the war were also single-mindedly focused on something: Shabbos. Everything else was gravy. Once things eased up, there was the luxury to focus on other things.

PinkFridge

Wed, May 17 2023, 8:26 am

amother Floralwhite wrote:

I think because they are davening 3 times a day and talking to hashem - so makes sense to be wearing dignified clothing the whole day.

And women who daven once or twice a day, and talk to Hashem throughout the day?

PinkFridge

Wed, May 17 2023, 8:27 am

amother Hyacinth wrote:

Like I said, now we have the luxury of other battles. I think that most women are covering their hair again is a good thing. (And I know that there are mekoros not to, and if that's your halachic weltanschauung, cool. I'm talking about other communities.)