Kollel Life | Imamother

octopus

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 2:22 pm

amother wrote:

In my opinion, you shouldn't still be in kollel when your children are school age. It's the "lifetime" kollel I have a problem with. If you study in kollel to get your life started on a Torah basis, or you use it as training to be a Rav or go into chinuch, that's wonderful, or you need to strengthen something within you for a year or two--I think that is what it is for.

But if a man is just learning torah for the sake of learning with no end in sight, with no interest in supporting his family or community--that's just backwards.

It's appalling when you read something the Jewish Press about a kollel guy who feels put out because his father in law asks for a dvar torah from him.

you won't find me preaching kollel life, and I have my issues with it (I don't think it's for the masses the way it is today), but your comments are way out of line. If their is truly a guy that is so exemplary in his learning and middos, then, yes, we as community should be supportive of him and his family. And even if the community offers no support to such a person, if they choose to live frugally, than it is not our business to put down.

As to the letter about the kollel guy who felt put-out giving a dvar torah. I also was appalled by that. My father talks in learning with his sons-in law (who are not in kollel!) all the time. But this has nothing to do with people whose true occupation is only torah.

creativemommyto3

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 2:24 pm

P.S. it's a known thing that kollel families have to be on their best behavior at all time more than all of the rest of us..

My sil who always wears the right kind of stockings and just on the day that she went shopping for more someone came over to her and said that she should be careful and wear the proper stockings b/c she is part of the kollel and should be an example to the klal.

Also, this doesn't only apply to kollel, but for some reason they are at the top of ppl's heads in the frum world.. right next to the talks about Zionists... and chassidim... and modern...

Atali

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 3:24 pm

creativemommyto3 wrote:

Look Here

Atali, also felt this was attached to kollel.. that's why she said it was a tangent on this thread..

Who needs a list.. it's obvious the kollel families would need many breaks unless the woman has a really amazing salary or they get parental help.

This is not a bash by the way.. just trying to examine where pple's thoughts might be at.

Yes, that thread that I started was a tangent from this thread, but not specifically about kollel.

Let me explain:

My point was, essentially, that as far as paying tuition is concerned, Kollel families should be treated the same as any other single-income two-parent family. If you believe that stay-at-home mothers should work instead of accepting tuition breaks, then I can see how you would think the same should apply to kollel families.

If, however, you don't think the tuition committee has the right to insist that a stay-at-home mother should work--either because the tuition committee should judge people based on the situation they are in currently without passing judgment, or because you believe that being a stay-at-home mother is a particularly worthy thing that should be done--the same should apply to kollel families as well.

Crayon210

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 5:21 pm

Atali wrote:

creativemommyto3 wrote:

Yes, that thread that I started was a tangent from this thread, but not specifically about kollel.

Let me explain:

I don't think you're right here.

Some people value the concept of a mother being at home and raising her children, but don't value the concept of a man being in kollel. End of story.

If the tuition committee feels that way, they can certainly insist that a kollel guy go to work in order to pay tuition.

Let's say my husband wants to stay home and watch the grass grow. Should the tuition committee be forced to give us a tuition break just like they give to a family where the mom stays home, or where the father learns? Obviously not. There is no rule that you have to accept everyone's meshuga'as.

Atali

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 5:23 pm

creativemommyto3 wrote:

I agree with that 100 percent... but women are being told to go to work.... all it takes for one yente to say it's b/c of the kollel families and poof there you go...

that's my point... all the bashings on this site and in the jewish world.. come from stories told by the neighborhood yentes...

Yentes... whereever you are ... stop causing trouble!!!!!! Twisted Evil

Anybody want to start a seder on hilchos lashon Hara??

Maybe it can go in the "Working on our Middos" forum

shalhevet

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 5:31 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

Right, Torah learning which keeps the world going

Quote:

אם לא בריתי יומם ולילה חוקות שמים וארץ לא שמתי

If not for my covenant (Torah - which the passuk says 'you should study it by day and night') I would not put the laws of Heaven and Earth.

is just a meshugas, like watching the grass grow. Crying

Do you daven every day? Do you say

Quote:

ונהיה אנחנו וצאצאינו וצאצי עמך בית ישראל כולנו יודעי שמך ולומדי תורתיך לשמה
And may we, and our descendants, and the descendants of Your people the House of Israel, all know Your Name and learn Your Torah for its own sake.

Crayon210

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 5:35 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

Right, Torah learning which keeps the world going

Quote:

is just a meshugas, like watching the grass grow. Crying

Do you daven every day? Do you say

Quote:

The fact that I disagree with the kollel lifestyle does not mean I don't value Torah learning.

(This, unfortunately, is a typical defense mechanism for kollel people--if you don't like kollel, you don't value Torah. Scratching Head

)

Atali

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 5:38 pm

Shalhevet,

I think you are taking Crayon's post out of context. It seemed to me that she was simply saying that a tuition committee may feel that it is inappropriate to give tuition assistance to a man in kollel who could be working. She used the "grass growing" as an extreme example of how she doesn't think that a tuition committee should have to be okay with everyone's choices.

I don't agree with this, of course.

She was not saying that chas v'shalom learning Torah is equivalent to watching the grass grow.

Atali

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 5:43 pm

creativemommyto3 wrote:

Maybe the schools can put a box to check if you are willing to give extra money for the sake of kollel families and mothers who stay at home. if it is true that women are forced to go out to work for tuition.. is there some validity to say that maybe some kollel men should find some parnassa to help the finances, even if it is just some tutoring or safrus etc.

In that case the school should also ask if I am willing to pay extra to build a fancy new school building or a state-of-the-art science lab. I certainly am not.

Schools don't work that way. The school board (or whoever is in charge) decides how the money is spent. If individual families got to decide how school money is spent the school could not function. What if no one elected to pay for cleaning help?

shalhevet

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 5:46 pm

I apologise if I misunderstood (especially if it wasn't crayon's personal opinion but she was just presenting what a tuition committee might say), but the point still stands. If someone values Torah they will at least value kolel enough to respect someone else's right to choose that lifestyle (just as they respect a couple's right to decide if the wife should work or not) meaning that that couple will now have a lower income with any implications that has for tuition.

From the time in Egypt the Jewish people has always valued that some people will sit and learn full time and others will help them continue to do so.

Crayon210

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 5:48 pm

shalhevet wrote:

If someone values Torah they will at least value kolel enough to respect someone else's right to choose that lifestyle (just as they respect a couple's right to decide if the wife should work or not) meaning that that couple will now have a lower income with any implications that has for tuition.

Wrong. I value Torah learning but do not agree that tuition should be treated the same as stay at home moms (which I do value).

Quote:

From the time in Egypt the Jewish people has always valued that some people will sit and learn full time and others will help them continue to do so.

I think this is more propaganda, sorry.