Do people teach their kids manners or only mitzvos?

tweety1

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 10:33 pm

ftm1234 wrote:

You think people are going to answer "Oh, I only teach my kids mitzvos. Manners don't matter as much".

Most people will probably say that just like you, they try their best to teach their kids manners.

A husband who drinks like that was most probably taught to drink from a cup and picked up this habit in yeshiva.

Kids who stare can be told not to stare a million times but if they find something interesting enough they will be right back at staring within two minutes. It's what kids do.

Not always is it because the parents didn't teach their kids manners.

Just my opinion.

Your post reminds me of dh motto when talking about people who are very frum or are always into doing mitzvos. For those who read and understand Yiddish:
What does פרום stand for? פיל רשות ווייניג מצוות. As long as you do mitzvos you can act like a jerk

amother

Lightcoral

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 10:35 pm

"Manners" vary by culture and society.
The Chinese have a different set of manners than the Americans, for example.

You brought two examples.
Staring and cupping hands to drink. Who decided that those are bad manners? You?

We do have guidelines for derech eretz. The Ramban taught about keeping our voice low and how to address older people. Pirkei avos gives 7 traits of a cultivated person.

But nothing about staring or cupping hands.

As a child of European mother, certain manners were very much ingrained in me. But none of my American counterparts shared those values.

(Peeing in the pool is disgusting according to all. And Peeing in the shower is none of your business and harms no one.)

ftm1234

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 11:01 pm

tweety1 wrote:

Yes I heard about that one.

One of my Yiddish favorites, I have to say.

Queen Of Hearts

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 11:04 pm

Derech eretz kadmah l'Torah.
My mother raised us to be mannered.
And I am trying my best to raise my kids to be mannered, too.
When I see grown adults acting un-mannered I am so turned off.
How many times do I hold the door open for a woman with a carriage and she walks through without a Thank you...
I look at her with disgust afterwards.
My siblings and I have the opposite issue, we thank too much. We appreciate anything anyone does for us. We Never take advantage of people.
I am disgusted and flabbergasted when I see people acting the opposite.

amother

Lightcoral

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 11:07 pm

Sweetmommy wrote:

You are talking of derech eretz. Op was talking about manners. The two are not the same, despite sometimes overlapping.

Queen Of Hearts

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 11:08 pm

amother Lightcoral wrote:

You are talking of derech eretz. Op was talking about manners. The two are not the same, despite sometimes overlapping.

So a woman not thanking you if you hold the door open for her and her carriage is not unmannered?

amother

Lightcoral

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 11:13 pm

I remember hearing about one of the gedolim that would never drink out of a water bottle. Most of us would not find it offensive if we saw a person drinking out of a personal water bottle. But this gadol only drank out of a cup. Is this manners or derech eretz? Or is this a cultural thing?
Other gedolim took issue with licking an ice cream cone, insisting that it is unrefined. The right way to eat ice cream is with a spoon.
But would you accuse a mother who buys ice cream cones for her kids as not teaching them proper manners?

My grandfather used to insist that we may never put elbows on the table. There was a way to hold your knife and fork, and a way to eat soup. And Chas veshalom, do not cross your legs. There was a way to walk in the street. When you saw someone coming toward you, you had to stand on the side to let him pass. I had a list of manners that were ingrained in us, most of which is very cultural.

amother

Lightcoral

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 11:16 pm

Sweetmommy wrote:

So a woman not thanking you if you hold the door open for her and her carriage is not unmannered?

As I said, they sometimes overlap.
Read my previous post.
Are those things manners or derech eretz?
Who defines what's derech eretz and what's manners?
Is there a shulchan aruch for manners?
Some things are written (don't interrupt while someone is speaking, don't speak before someone greater than you, greet each person, etc. ) But not cupping your hands to drink? Who decided that it constitutes bad manners? Truly, the Germans had the most refined manners. It's all very cultural.

Queen Of Hearts

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 11:24 pm

amother Lightcoral wrote:

I hear what you're saying. Maybe cuz this happened too many times recently...I got on my soapbox.

So these things usually happen at home or privately.
I was raised that way as well; don't chew loudly, don't stare, don't whisper about others, especially in front of them, etc.
Cupping hands to drink is just unappetizing!

Rubber Ducky

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 11:25 pm

NechaMom wrote:

These threads make me wonder...
Do you teach your kids not to stare?
Not to drink with a hand cup?
Not to pee in the pool or shower?

Or you only teach them mitzvos?

The hand cup was good enough manners for G-d. Check out Shoftim 7:1 - 7:7.

NechaMom

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 11:31 pm

Rubber Ducky wrote:

The hand cup was good enough manners for G-d. Check out Shoftim 7:1 - 7:7.

There were no cups then. Wink

I realize my examples are silly but I was going off the current threads.
My question was on general manners. The specifics is not the point.

NechaMom

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 11:34 pm

amother Lightcoral wrote:

I agree it can be cultural but there are plenty universal manners that we’d all agree on. Saying please and thank you, not cutting lines, holding doors...

amother

Lilac

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 11:41 pm

amother Whitesmoke wrote:

I taught them manners. For mitzvos, I sent them to a frum school. That's their job.

A mother and father teach a child to do the mitzvos. Parents are the first people a child hears making a bracha. Mommy lights candles and Daddy makes kiddush and we’re not going for a drive or coloring today and that’s a child’s introduction to Shabbos. A big boy wears tzitzis. A big girl says amen when mommy makes the bracha on taking challa. Mitzvos start at home from the people you love most in the world. It’s your job to provide nourishment for your child’s body and soul. Don’t leave it to school to teach mitzvos. They’ll teach your child to read and write. They’ll teach chumash and navi and mishnayos. They’ll teach halacha and all the details involved in keeping shabbos and kosher and all the other mitzvos. It’s your job to introduce your child to mitzvos and to make them enjoyable. When you teach them to respect and be kind to others you can teach them manners too.

amother

Peru

Tue, Aug 22 2023, 12:54 am

DH and I were wondering this as we sat down to a Shabbos meal in a mehardin, all frum hotel full of bein hazmanim vacationing families. I had just been literally pushed, hand on my behind shoving me (a grandmother), by a child around ten rushing past me to wash for hamotzi. His father then beamed proudly as the kid washed very carefully and loudly recited the bracha with what looked like utter kavanah.
That Shabbos I didn't eat as much as I would have, because I was nausiated by watching some (not all) kids shoving their hands into the main platters instead of using the utensils. Forget about the desserts.
I'm sorry, but I have never seen such behaviour anywhere else.
I also wonder how these kids can grow up to be polite, considerate adults, even if they say their brachos with upmost kavanah.
We need to teach our children manners as well as mitzvos - not to can be a huge chillul Hashem.

NechaMom

Tue, Aug 22 2023, 1:02 am

amother Peru wrote:

Perfect example of my question!

NechaMom

Tue, Aug 22 2023, 1:02 am

amother Lilac wrote:

Well said!

Reality

Tue, Aug 22 2023, 1:43 am

NechaMom wrote:

There were no cups then. Wink

I realize my examples are silly but I was going off the current threads.
My question was on general manners. The specifics is not the point.

Of course there were cups then. Eating utensils, including cups, were made from clay.

Reality

Tue, Aug 22 2023, 1:57 am

I feel like all these threads have an underlying theme: let's have a negative eye and only see the worst in our own community.

I have always worked with frum kids. I've worked with chassidish, yeshivish, modern orthodox, chareidi, dati leumi, whatever label you want to stick on. Most kids have decent manners. Some kids standout for their stellar manners and unfortunately, some stood out for the opposite.

Why focus on that small percentage? Most are not the best, but good enough. Why do frum Jews buy into the stereotypes about ourselves?

I know I will be accused of making the thread go the "typical" route, yada yada, but it's true. Why do we have this abnormal expectation that everyone behaves perfectly at all times? And then jump on the minority and paint with a broad brush about everyone in certain communities?

imaima

Tue, Aug 22 2023, 2:10 am

NechaMom wrote:

There were no cups then. Wink

I realize my examples are silly but I was going off the current threads.
My question was on general manners. The specifics is not the point.

There is no general manners. Some things harm noone. Other things harm everyone, like peeing in a public pull.