Issue with a certain chabad rabbi. Who to complain to?

amother

Cadetblue

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 8:06 am

CPenzias wrote:

That was a special response. I disagree with her. The "Rabbi" was so disrespectful from the get-go

Special commitments receive special response.

I'll quote 'To be honest rather than worry about finding someone to whom you can report his behavior I would think long and hard about penning him an apology.' Yup special indeed.

amother

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 8:09 am

amother Pansy wrote:

This 100%.

If I was chabad I would blacklist you from reserving again and warn my relatives who also help tourist that you dispute PayPal charges and cancel and demand refunds.
He sounds too busy to do that - so don’t worry. Also, that isn’t in the spirit of chabad.

OP, you were asked multiple times to change your thread title. You think “why should I? I’m entitled to smear a sect based on my interpretation of an interaction with one person from that sect.”

What do you think is an appropriate title? I don't feel this title bashes chabad as a group. The title says my issue is with a CERTAIN rabbi.

What's the issue and what's your suggestion?

amother

Cadetblue

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 8:09 am

amother Tomato wrote:

But again if you cancel your reservation doesn’t mean you deserve a refund. In certain situations there is no refund and he would have been better off just saying that. He was trying to offer you some compensation in the form of food credit which he didn’t need to do and in return you disputed the charge. Whatever he said was also not nice but now you caused him money loss and he has to deal with this with pay pal. Really not nice of you.

Food credit = no money back. Food credit is a joke in a place you don't live in.

amother

Cadetblue

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 8:11 am

amother Razzmatazz wrote:

Boiling it down to the concrete facts I think its clearer what most likely happened.
You paid for reservations, cancelled, was told it would be refunded when spaces filled, then you saw reservations closed and albeit understandably made an erroneous assumption that that meant he somehow was reneging on refunding based on filling your space. However, when you asked him and he explained you didn't trust what he told you. And you disputed the charge through PayPal.

Your twisting op's words. It's called comprehension.

amother

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 8:11 am

amother Tomato wrote:

Just communicate that. He didn't. His response was that if he replaces us, he'll refund.

If he had a refund policy on his website saying no refunds after a certain day, or no refunds period, that's fine.

There's nothing on the website about refunds. His communication with me indicated that a refund depended on whether someone would take my spot. Then he reneged and was obnoxious. What an I missing?

amother

Cadetblue

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 8:13 am

amother Oxfordblue wrote:

OP, and as to the original question in the thread, complain to his wife Smile

or better yet, ask her politely to explain. You might see the story a little differently.

I actually pity his wife. If he acts this way to others can you imagine what she needs to deal with.

amother

Yellow

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 8:15 am

The title is not negative. It’s very clear she only has an issue with ONE person and is not bashing. People falling over themselves to excuse rude and obnoxious behavior was the only problem on this thread. And yes if you call yourself a rabbi we expect you to behave even better than the average person, certainly not worse.

amother

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 8:16 am

amother Pansy wrote:

If you can find one word from me in this thread where I "smeared a sect" I'd appreciate if you'd tell me so I can correct it. I have not said a derogatory word about chabad as a group. Not a single word. And it's not because I'm holding back. It's because I have nothing bad to say.

That's why I don't have to go back and check the thread to see if I let something nasty slip. I have nothing nasty to say about chabad so it's impossible. But go ahead, tell me how I smeared the group.

Otherwise you owe me an apology. I hope you will respond to this.

amother

Darkblue

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 8:42 am

What's a bit tricky with chabad is that unless you have a formal restaurant setting, the contribution you make will be something like a charity contribution.

Now, in my mind it makes sense not to demand a refund of a charity contribution.

OP, maybe I missed something (I have not read pages 7 to last), but you did not really explain how the money you paid together with the reservation was labelled.

If it was like a restaurant - you reserve, it costs amount x per person - you pay... I could understand that you want a refund, especially if you cancelled two weeks in advance, and I think they should give you the refund, especially if they could take other guests instead of your family.

However, if it was something along the lines "you give whatever you want to give" - I would understand that no refund is given.

ETA: I don't feel that the title or this thread smears chabad in any way. Maybe the users affiliated with chabad are a bit hypersensitive in this realm.

My first impression was more negative about OP than about chabad.

lamplighter

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 8:45 am

I actually think this should be a question for daas torah not daas imamother because it was about a dispute and about a dispute regarding another yid.
In terms so how you should have titled it, well it depends what your intentions were. Your title says that your intention was to "tell on him" to the higher ups. Reporting someone is for grave situations in which a regular Rav or mediation can't help. When it turned out to be about the shliachs lack of manners and money issues, everyone went to defensive because you come across as a tattle not as someone who is looking to solve a problem.
You could have titled it "dispute over reservations- what to do now?" Or something like that.....because that's what it was.

WhatFor

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 8:48 am

amother OP wrote:

That's true. And he subsequently told that to me. But it doesn't mean my politely written 2 sentence question to him about opening reservations was out of line. He could have responded:

"I expect to get many calls in the next few days about reservation and I hope to get a replacement that way".

Instead he responded sarcastically ignoring my point and saying he'll make me his manager.

And this is after he told me I asked a "lousy question".

I'm frankly amazed that people here are giving him a pass and saying things like he might have been swamped with emails and what not. Rule #1
Be respectful. Period. He wasn't. He was sarcastic and obnoxious.

I ask any of you if at your work or even personal life if you've ever told am adult they asked you a "lousy question". It is off the charts disrespectful.

What happens often on imamother is that where there's grey, and where maybe both parties weren't on their best behavior, imas just advise the OP on what's in the OP's realm of control. After all, the other side isn't there, so if their behavior isn't over the top dangerous/egregious there's really no point on harping on what they should do. They're not there.

But also, I think in this case, the way the thread played out you didn't really end up helping yourself. That doesn't make you a bad person or the wrong person. It's just that humans are complex and we respond to how our brain primes us to based not only on our personal histories but on how the situation is presented.

In your opening post, you mentioned you were on vacation at a resort and asked about reporting a chabad rabbi to a supervisory authority without saying why. By the responses, I'm sure you can see that there's a history of a lot of sensitivity around some people's entitlement toward chabad when they're on vacation. Some others were wondering why people were lumping you with the entitled people without even knowing what happened. What if you or a child were seriously harmed by a rabbi, shouldn't you be allowed to report them? Then you revealed what happened. You had a refund dispute and you didn't appreciate how it was handled. And you already went to an external arbitrator to handle it. To many people, the reporting on top of the action you're already taking can be considered a bit of an escalation compared to what actually happened. That doesn't make you a bad person, but the way the story was framed, there was a buildup and an expectation of something egregious and then what actually happened wasn't as terrible as one would have expected for that question.

Throughout your posts, you also didn't convey much regard for how you may have inconvenienced the rabbi along the way. I'm not going to sit here and say that his response was kind or even appropriate at all, but it's also not very considerate to ask a busy org what their address is when they've already made it publicly available in multiple places.

If you're insecure about the address, there's a way to frame your question that gives deference to the other person and shows you've done your work, but you just want to verify. Something like, "Hi, I'm sorry to bother you about this, but I just wanted to confirm whether the address on your website at ----is still current. I noticed a different address for a chabad at ---- so I just wanted to make sure that wasn't a new location for you." This shows them that you actually did your work and respect their time, you have a legitimate doubt, and you're not the 200th person that month who expects them to be their convenient tripadvisor.

If the rabbi has posted here (which he didn't) I would've told him to create a template FAQs and email to send when people ask questions that he thinks are readily available, and it saves him a bit of grief and brain energy. But he didn't ask and he's not here, and I have no idea what he was thinking when he wrote that. I personally found your email to him to look rude- because that's how things in message often come across when they're not clearly friendly. But I totally believe you that you didn't mean it that way. Is it possible that English isn't his first language and/or he's a very literal person, so when he sent his harsh commentary to your question, he had no idea how most people would receive that? I don't know.

Also, you don't really seem to acknowledge at all how you might have inconvenienced him. You're satisfied that he filled the spot. But people usually make policies based on how they want a lot of people to behave, not just one person. Why did you book with them and then cancel? You thought you had nowhere else but then found a better gig so backed out? How many people do you think do that to them? How easy do you think it is to deal with people using you as a "backup plan" and then dumping you when you find a better deal? It seems like he wanted to close reservations early, based on his email to you before you booked. And he probably had multiple inquiries at that point, but once he was closed out, he turned people down. But you made it so that after he thought he closed that chapter, he had to reopen it and make sure that space was full. Was it the end of the world? Probably not. But some humility on your part might have elicited more graciousness from the other side too.

Then he offered you a food refund. I might not have been thrilled about that either, but it was what you had originally purchased, and he made it even more convenient, you could have it delivered to you whenever it was suitable to you throughout your vacation. I'm not saying you were obligated to accept, but it wasn't an insane proposition and it was a sign of someone trying to come to a meeting place. (To those posters saying she would never need the food and how could he offer it if she doesn't live there - what? She's about to take a vacation there. Of course she could use food where she's staying, she just found a preferred place and isn't interested anymore.)

As I keep saying, none of this to say you are a terrible person or anything like that. And I don't even know what halacha would say about who was really the wrong one in this situation. And I'm not going to sit here and defend how he responded in that email. I'm just explaining my opinion on why many people responded with criticism to you as opposed to to him.

lamplighter

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 8:51 am

amother OP wrote:

If you can find one word from me in this thread where I "smeared a sect" I'd appreciate if you'd tell me so I can correct it. I have not said a derogatory word about chabad as a group. Not a single word. And it's not becauseI'm holding back. It's because I have nothing bad to say.

That's why I don't have to go back and check the thread to see if I let something nasty slip. I have nothing nasty to say about chabad so it's impossible. But go ahead, tell me how I smeared the group.

Otherwise you owe me an apology. I hope you will respond to this.

You did not saying anything negative about chabad or shluchim. Not once. There was another poster (amother yellow) who was not nice but you have kept it focused on the actual experience with this actual shliach.

The title was triggering in that it reads like "had an issue with a satmar shopkeeper who do I complain to?". Using a sect as an adjective to describe something negative reads like a smear. Maybe like a news article that reads "hasidic Jew found guilty of....."

amother

Yellow

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 8:53 am

lamplighter wrote:

Seriously? I was not nice? What exactly did I do?

B'Syata D'Shmya

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 8:55 am

OP. This thread is too painful and full of Sinas Chinum.
I hope you enjoy your vacation. If this is how you prepare for your vacations, you and I are too different.

amother

Gold

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 8:56 am

amother Yellow wrote:

Seriously? I was not nice? What exactly did I do?

I pointed it out in several of your posts. The way you write how tourists are, and I quote, ' 100% mistreated'. You said Chabad has bad attitude toward frum Jews and when confronted on that you right away back peddled to say you have no personal experience.
How is that anything but not nice? You can defend OP without being nasty.

amother

Gold

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 8:58 am

I think OP, if you would not have pointed fingers at a specific group you would have gotten a much more sympathetic response.

amother

Yellow

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 9:01 am

amother Gold wrote:

That was pages in with people being beyond nasty to op and attacking her as if she was bashing. Yeah I was commenting on the attitude here. It’s awful and deserves to be called out. That doesn’t make me nasty. And I never back peddled I just called out your assumptions about me. Seems if you call out anything on here you are called names. Very telling about you and others. Maybe ask why you are so deeply triggered by all of this.

amother

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 9:12 am

I don't know why I'm posting this but I think he completely misunderstood my original question about the 2 similar chabad addresses and that threw him off. Here's the very last email he sent to my husband:

I try to work with you as a courtesy and you were difficult to please.

Now you want to take it into a personal

I don't believe you have any respect for Chabad. You Wana come and enjoy and pay for a service. This is not a donation you send. this paying for your meal

You sound very arrogant.

To cancel ask for a refund and to say I need the refund to go to your competitor. It's not ethical.

So now you decided to go claim PayPal will go that route

Some other people who where nicer got a full refund.

It seems that he is very competitive with the other chabad. He interpreted my innocent question about the 2 similar addresses as questioning him about his competitor so I can use the other chabad. I think that's why he said it's unethical. He's mistaken because I was asking innocently. I thought because the addresses are so close, maybe one is the shul and the other is a store or who knows what, but it's one single chabad.

At any rate I can see why he'd be offended by my question. He still shouldn't have responded louzy question, but at least I realize that it wasn't that he was being asked the same question for the upteenth time as many here ridiculously used as a justification. He though I was using him to go to his competitor. It also makes sense because he was a little derogatory to the other chabad. He told me they "copied" his menu almost word for word. Yes, they both list items like gefilite fish, chicken soup, potato kugel and chulent.

Anyway, in the interest of fairness (since I have the utmost respect for chabad) I wanted to include this misunderstanding that I believe sent him off the rails. It still doesn't justify his response but it's not quite as disgusting as I originally thought considering he completely misunderstood my innocent question about the 2 addresses.

rdmom

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 9:24 am

From what you posted here, I think I know who you are talking about. The two Chabad’s are really close to each other. The one you originally booked is less liked. And it hurts. But you can tell why he is less liked. I don’t have to spell it out. So I know that it is a sore spot for him. The other one is way busier at any given time.
I have been there for meals. And knowing that there is another one not far, I would go to the other one next time. Just from my own personal experience. And a lot of people who I spoke to say the same.
That’s just his attitude.

scintilla

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 9:55 am

amother OP wrote:

I didn't read the whole thread but I think I saw all your responses, OP.

So I'm pretty sure you already got the answer to your original question which is, not really anyone to talk to, each Chabad house is like an independent business, the most Merkos can really do is take away someone's right to be officially under the Chabad name as they do in very extreme circumstances only.

Now as a Chabad person, I want to say that I appreciate everyone trying to defend Chabad however it's just the reality that every barrel has some rotten apples (out of over 4,000 shluchim it would be more surprising if there weren't any that people had less than positive experiences with!) and it doesn't need to be whitewashed that this shliach does seem to have been quite quite rude and offensive to OP!

OP I'm sorry you had to experience that, the matter of the money perhaps ask your rav if you should be doing anything different at this point but I do not fault you at all for wanting to be treated better and for wanting to get your money back that you spent on a service you did not and will not be receiving.

If you would like to pm me the general area I can look up for you if there's a head shliach there who would have some authority over this shliach and could perhaps talk to him but I honestly don't imagine it would help much. Just offering.