helping out poor family with high standards

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Helping out poor family with high standards

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greenfire

Mon, Aug 18 2008, 3:38 pm

Mimisinger wrote:

I wonder, re. the ketchup, whether it's because many people like Heinz as opposed to other brands. What if the people liked steak for dinner every night instead of chicken?

What's the difference? I think it's very difficult to give people money who are living better than I am.

no there is a balance and while some things can be reasonable I.e. heinz ketchup on sale ... other things are going over board I.e. steak every night ... but what if they buy steak once every 3 months for shabbos dinner or their kid's birthday ... you happen to see when they purchase the steak and think "oh my - how dare she buy a steak" ...

montrealmommy

Mon, Aug 18 2008, 3:39 pm

Quote:

IMO, giving someone the tools to support themselves on an ongoing basis without the constant need for tzedakah is the highest form of tzedakah. Non-preachy, non-judgmental financial planning advice can be a way of doing this.

This reminds me of the old adage, "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime" -

If I am not mistaken I believe that of the 8 levels of tzedakah, giving a person the opportunity to not rely on monetary tzedakah is 'higher up' than giving a handout. It helps preserve the person in need's esteem ego but also helps their plight

sarahd

Mon, Aug 18 2008, 3:49 pm

Raisin wrote:

SarahD, manksimas point was that the famiily she is helping had never been rich, yet they still would only eat brand name food, not go to a gemach etc.

I realize that. I was responding to an amother post further on.

Raisin

Mon, Aug 18 2008, 4:21 pm

Mimisinger wrote:

Because a bottle of ketchup goes further? wheras steak instead of chicken, is a big difference in price.

I agree fox...everyone has their luxuries. some people spend on books, some on clothes, some on food, some on travel, some on giving gifts. the problem is when you have a person who spends in all areas.

freidasima

Mon, Aug 18 2008, 4:25 pm

I echo Clarissa.
I find it difficult to give zedaka to people who live less frugally than I do. Now that's a problem as I live frugally, but when you are talking charity, then let's call a spade a spade.
Someone who is taking charity from other people has a responsibility to live very very very frugally to bring themselves to a situation where they don't have to take charity or as much charity.
There are people who chas vesholom need the money for a kidney or treatment to keep themselves alive. That goes a lot further in my mind that using or not using a certain brand of ketchup. Heck there are people who never even heard of ketchup of any kind, it's a luxury.

There is also the business of hachnosas kallah. Took me a long time to see that the people going from door to door weren't looking for money to make a small wedding, buy a poor kallah a dress and some linens and pots and pans so that she could get married, but instead they are looking to buy an apartment for $2oo,ooo...well, when my kids get such apartments I will start once again contributing to such pepole.

Living in EY. Lovely. Chalukah money once upon a time allowed talmidei chochomim to live here, on a pittance, living as it says in pirkei ovos "pas bimelach tochal, viyayin bamesoro tishte ve'al ho'oretz tishan".

Today they want to buy four room apartments.
I will be happy for my kids to live better than I do.
I am not happy to see people living better than I do ask me for money.

So I find it difficult not supporting chas vesholom a large family whose provider was niftar, or injured or ill, but one which never had a provider as parents made the active decision to join the zedoko brigade from day one.

Sorry, this isn't PC for a frum woman to write, but there is a limit to which I will bankrupt my family for others who won't live as cheaply.

ora_43

Tue, Aug 19 2008, 5:36 pm

OK different issues here

1) Living in Israel. Halachically, it's not a luxury, at least not any more than things like eating meat on Shabbos, wearing a wedding gown, or any number of other things that people are usually happy to contribute to.

Financially, it's only a luxury for a select few. I'll give an example:
Family A just moved to Israel from America. Neither spouse speaks Hebrew, and they are currently unable to find work. Both have good jobs available in the states.
Family B has always lived in Israel. Neither spouse has a foreign citizenship, and neither knows English or any other language beyond what they learned in high school. Even if they could get green cards, the professional requirements in their fields are different in the states than they are in Israel, and both would have difficulty finding work.

It's reasonable to say that family A should be expected to move before asking for full financial support. But to say that living in Israel is a luxury in general is absurd--clearly, family B should not be expected to move, and leaving the country wouldn't help their financial situation in any case. Chances are good that most of the large Israeli kollel families mentioned in requests for donations are in the same category as family B, and do not have the option of moving abroad or any realistic hope to find work outside of Israel.

2) Living in Israel/ Learning in kollel. If I give to a kollel, or a kollel family, or to someone who wants to stay in Israel but would be financially better of elsewhere, I don't consider it giving to the poor. But it's still a big mitzva (and according to my rav, definitely something ma'aser can be used for, although some should still go to the poor as well). Someone who gives to a kollel learner in Eretz Yisrael is supporting both Torah study and yishuv ha'aretz.

It seems strange to me to say "if my dh can't learn full time, why should I help someone else" or "if we can't live in Israel, why should we help them," etc. If you would like to learn Torah full-time but can't, all the more reason to give to a kollel. Then you'll still have a share in the mitzva of full-time Torah learning. Of course if you have the money to fully support a kollel family support your own--but if not, why not give what you can?

It also seems to me that if someone really wants to learn in kollel but is unable to, giving to a kollel is the best way of aiming for a "mida k'neged mida" response from Hashem that would allow him to learn full-time as well.

3) Giving to a family that spends unnecessarily, not on kollel or a different mitzva, but on things like expensive food, nice clothes, etc.

It's very important that ma'aser money get to the right place, that is, to those who are really poor. I would not give to someone who is using the money for "extras." However, I think it's always best to ask a rabbi first, preferably one who knows the situation. Sometimes there are ways to make sure the money is used properly without cutting off help completely. Also, sometimes it might be an OK use of ma'aser for the sake of the kids, who can't help having parents who beg for money in order to buy heinz instead of regular ketchup.

amother

Thu, Sep 18 2008, 11:34 pm

You really never know what a person's situation is. We receive some financial help with grocery bills, and it makes me feel really guilty all the time. I almost sweat every time I go shopping on someone else's bill, and now that I read this post I KNOW a lot of people would judge me.

I grew up in a home where food bills weren't given thought, and it was completely normal to eat steak almost every night. When I was a teenager, through college and until I got married, my father gave me a credit card, and I could charge it is much as I wanted, and he paid the bill. My friends and I ate out at nice restaurants several times a week without thought. I always bought lunch out.

Then I became a baalas teshuva. I left my premed program to become "ultra-orthodox," got married, had a bunch of children really fast, and found myself struggling financially. It is deeply painful to me not to be able to buy the foods I want - ESPECIALLY with someone else helping pay the bill. It embarrasses me that they know what I buy. And now I find out that I can be judged for buying Heinz? It would never have occurred to me that it mattered! Now I know. Sad

By the way, I attended an Ivy League university and I studied economics - and there is no reason for kosher meat to be as expensive as it is, besides greed. It hurts me that they want to get rich at my family's expense. (And they do get rich - I've been to the home of someone in this industry, and I can't begin to describe the wealth I witnessed!) It pains me to no end not to be able to eat steaks and meat all the time - that's what I grew up with. And in the secular world, beef is cheap and normal, not a "luxury." Those in the glatt kosher meat industry make it into a luxury - it doesn't need to be.

About 3 or 4 times a year I can't take it anymore and I buy brisket or pepper steaks, but believe me, if on those rare occasions you peaked into my fridge and saw a steak, please don't tell me your husband would be upset about it for months or years, like someone else here posted. Maybe, like me, they only buy it a few times a year You don't know how often they have it, or how much it means to them based on how they grew up, like me.

Also, as for "exotic fruit" that someone says they saw in a "poor" person's fridge, who knows? I buy a lot of fruit at Costco. The grocery help we receive doesn't cover all our expenses by any means - maybe $350 a month at most - so we have to still buy. Anyway, the produce at Costco is cheaper than in the heimishe groceries, and by far superior in quality, taste, and shelf-life (hello, the tomatoes last two weeks in my firdge from Costco, and two days from the grocery!). Why should I pay $1.99 a pound for bruised fruit at the grocery, when I can get gorgeous fruit that tastes delicious at Costco for the same or less? It may look luxurious, but only because many people don't drive or don't know better or cant do the math.

By the way, I DO have problems managing my money, and I know it. I'm used to having Daddy's credit card, and buying whatever I want or need when I want or need it. It's been a growing process and I've made great progress in this area. Not being able to manage money doesn't mean a person is bad or selfish or stupid - it can be the result of always having more than you need, never knowing what it is like to want but not have. Like I said, it would never occur to me not to buy whatever brand of ketchup I wanted. How can I be blamed for something I would never have imagined mattered??

I guess my point is, try to be less judgmental, because you really don't know how it feels to be in someone else's shoes.

(P.S. I'm not at all sorry by my life choices - my Yiddishkeit is more important than my credit cards. I just don't like to think I'm being judged for my struggles in adjusting to "frum poverty" where a drain pipe runs directly from our bank account to the yeshiva tuitions...B"H)

amother

Thu, Sep 18 2008, 11:45 pm

P.S. I forgot to mention how really, really, really, really hard it is not to be able to eat out almost ever. It's something many frum people don;t think about, but I suffer deeply from. There's a reason it's a mitzvah to give tzedakah according to one's needs and what they're used to - because what doesn't bother one person can really tear another person apart. This has been one of the hardest adjustments to being frum-poor.

freidasima

Fri, Sep 19 2008, 2:47 am

Previous amother. I'm not judging you but mentioning a few facts of life.
Frum doesn't have to be a synonym with poverty.
A person doesn't have to drop out of a pre-med program to become frum. I know people who took a leave for a year or two to learn more and went back.
Therein lies the problem. It's one thing if one needs food stamps or assistance because of illness, infirmities, chas vesholom, those are the kind of things that you can't plan for and you can only rely on hasdei Hashem and the goodness and kindness of people.

But as for the rest, I don't understand why people think that frum people don't have choices. There is always a choice. In terms of having a lot of children fast? Why? So that other people can support those children?

And as for steak, let me tell you there are people who never saw one of those. And not only frum people. You chose? You wanted a lifestyle like this? your husband chose to learn and not work? Then live accordingly.

Sorry that you miss going out. Do you miss treif food too? There are things you give up when you choose. No looking back, sorry. I have little sympathy when it comes from choice. Beef is too expensive? Eat lentils like we all do here in EY because they are cheap. Frum and frei. That's what we live on.

I do have tremendous sympathy and empathy for someone who made plans, worked and supported their families and found themselves facing tragedy, illness, natural disaster etc. and needed zedaka. But I have little sympathy for someone who makes a choice, takes the hard route, swallows the line that poverty for torah is a wonderful thing, complains that they miss steaks and eating out etc.

Sorry, it's not being judgemental, it's being evenhanded. Why should you who aren't working have what my kids who work themselves to the bone, can't even dream of?

shalhevet

Fri, Sep 19 2008, 3:13 am

Friedasima, I think you missed amother's whole point. (I would answer at more length, but it's Friday...). I don't think I ever ate steak in my life, but amother's point was that it was something she was used to and it is difficult for her not to have it. So she makes the sacrifice day after day (and I'm sure gets tremendous sachar) and 3 or 5 or whatever times a year she treats herself. Since you or me or whoever never got used to daily steaks, we can't understand it. Different people have different nisyonos. For some it's clothes, for others food, for others it's reading things they know they shouldn't. And no one can judge anyone else. Also, who said she and/or her husband isn't working?

And your comment about having children was way out of line. Most rabbonim don't allow using bc for financial reasons (as opposed to health/ emotional ones). Even if they do, who says people always (want to) ask, or even know they can (should???). And even if someone does use bc, who says it works?

I think that was a nasty comment. Amother is not saying her children are starving, or neglected or don't have a roof over their heads. Now you are giving her 'mussar' for having children because she is struggling financially????

freidasima

Fri, Sep 19 2008, 10:21 am

Shalhevet I hear what you are saying. I wasn't advocating using active BC if someone doesn't want to, but there are other ways of trying to space children and we all know that...sometimes they work, at other times they don't but...

I was responding however to what amother wrote about being a baalat teshuva, finding herself "with a bunch of children and struggling financially". From that I can only infer the following. The struggle comes from the fact that she is home with the children and not working although she gave up studies for a profession in which she could have supported herself and her husgand and/or her husband isn't working and there is a connection between her poverty and her "bunch of children". Otherwise she woudn't have phrased it that way. If I misunderstood that's a different thing, but that's what I read from what she wrote.

As for steaks, sorry I just can't get it. If a rich person suddenly becomes poor and he tells me that he used to eat a steak every day and he misses it, I also won't really be able to get it. What is so important about eating a steak? Every day? Any time? What is so great about a steak? I just don't get it.

I can see moaning that you don't have food to give your kids, but moaning about a steak? I don't see it as a nisayon, sorry, I see it as a rich kid whose parents got her used to a very unhealthy lifestyle (believe me, I know rich people, frum and frei, and their kids don't eat steak every day, the kids don't have mommy or daddy's credit card at their disposal in their teens or anything like what she describes) and she chose to be frum and for some reason her parents chose not to help her (she wasn't exactly eating the steak that she was buying out of her own allowance was she?) and so she is stuck because she can't live at that standard.

Now tell me exactly what does this have to do with being frum or becoming at BT? I know BTs whose families were poor and they as BTs are just as poor but they are so happy they have yiddishkeit. I know BTs who come from well to do families and their families help them out greatly even though they are frum and the parents are frei and these frei parents do a lot to go towards their kids and grandchildren, making their home kosher with whatever hechsher the kids want, taking out their TV when the grandchildren visit etc. Great people.

Bottom line, seems to me here that the amother's beef is with her parents for not supporting her as a married woman to the lifestyle that they accustomed her to in her youth. The BT issue or frumkeit issue is irrelevant, UNLESS the parents cut her off because she became a BT...then again the beef (or steak?) is with the parents...it's a lot more complicated than what she writes..or a lot more simple depending on how you look at it.

Ruchel

Fri, Sep 19 2008, 10:25 am

Quote:

there is no reason for kosher meat to be as expensive as it is, besides greed.

Yes. And it won't change unless people boycott for some time. But they wont.

As for eating meat every day, it's extremely cultural and nothing wrong with it. Some have it 2 a day. Some, although that's pushing it imo, 3 a day (breakfast too). There are people who prefer "fake" meat made out of half meat half some soy stuff than eating less meat. It's a choice. But if you're helped, you can't force people to give you enough for meat every day, especially high quality meat...

amother

Fri, Sep 19 2008, 10:43 am

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

there is no reason for kosher meat to be as expensive as it is, besides greed.

Yes. And it won't change unless people boycott for some time. But they wont.

But there is some competition, so if it's only a matter of greed, why doesn't one of the companies drastically lower the price, make sure they have great hashgocho, and then everyone will buy from them?

amother

Fri, Sep 19 2008, 10:45 am

Why do you think the Torah says to give Tzedakah the way the person is accostomed to? Do you think you should just ignore those words? Are they superfluous?

Crayon210

Fri, Sep 19 2008, 10:46 am

amother wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

there is no reason for kosher meat to be as expensive as it is, besides greed.

Yes. And it won't change unless people boycott for some time. But they wont.

Why do they have to? People are buying meat and chicken without them lowering their prices.

freidasima

Fri, Sep 19 2008, 10:58 am

I don't know if the Torah meant that you should give zedaka to a person to live the way they are accustomed to, if that "way" is ten times higher than the way you are living...

shoy18

Fri, Sep 19 2008, 10:59 am

freidasima wrote:

I couldn't have said it better. People make choices and along with those choices comes sacrifices, and if you think its important enough to become financially dependent on others for the sake of torah then you cant exactly "miss" the things you were used to.

amother

Fri, Sep 19 2008, 10:59 am

Crayon210 wrote:

amother wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

there is no reason for kosher meat to be as expensive as it is, besides greed.

Yes. And it won't change unless people boycott for some time. But they wont.

Why do they have to? People are buying meat and chicken without them lowering their prices.

To corner the market, for the greediest of them all. Then I guess the others will follow, and they'll all just end up making less money.

Clarissa

Fri, Sep 19 2008, 11:03 am

People really have a sense of entitlement sometimes. We don't have as much money as my parents did. They had meat all the time, and went out to eat a lot. We can't afford restaurant food very often, and we almost never have fish, because of the cost. So what. People need to grow up and accept their own choices.

Crayon210

Fri, Sep 19 2008, 11:08 am

amother wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

amother wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

there is no reason for kosher meat to be as expensive as it is, besides greed.

Yes. And it won't change unless people boycott for some time. But they wont.

Why do they have to? People are buying meat and chicken without them lowering their prices.

To corner the market, for the greediest of them all. Then I guess the others will follow, and they'll all just end up making less money.

I don't think it'll work. Satmar chassidim buy Satmar meat, Lubavitchers buy Lubavitch meat, etc. Yes, there are a lot of people who might change companies because of price, but there are tens of thousands who will continue to pay more for their hechsher.

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