Haman on a Tree - Kids projects

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 5:07 pm

amother Impatiens wrote:

When I was a teen I knew an older girl who died by hanging. My grandma had a relative who hung himself after the Shoah and she found him. If my child would come with a smile with a hanging doll I would be mortified. I’m not the person who thinks this is all acceptable I’m also weirded out by some costumes but that is me call me a filthy woke liberal but I have my own sensitivities and that is ok.

I don't think the posts about woke, liberalism are directed to this type of aversion to the project. It was more towards the posters who are upset because of it's "cruelty."

I can completely understand how it's upsetting because it's graphic or triggering.

I think it's wrong to be against the craft because it's celebrating the downfall of Haman. Or that we shouldn't focus on the part where Haman is killed a) it's not celebrating, it's teaching b) we are allowed to be happy that Amalek are wiped out c) if Hashem included it in the megillah, we can teach it to our children appropriately.

amother

DarkPurple

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 5:08 pm

amother Aquamarine wrote:

I don't think the posts about woke, liberalism are directed to this type of aversion to the project. It was more towards the posters who are upset because of it's "cruelty."

But I don't see any such posts?

Ema of 5

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 5:11 pm

amother Camellia wrote:

We do have pictures of Pharoh drowning in the sea. Of Antioches falling off his elephant. Of Helipurnis head on a spike.

Personally I do cringe from seeing nooses and yes the culture plays a role. We live in this society, we live by it as well. Nowadays we don’t talk to kids about mom there’s dying in childbirth, it used to be common knowledge in other eras.

I don’t think it’s woke to be sensitive about nooses. It’s sensitive to the culture.

We don’t have a picture of Pharaoh drowning because he didn’t.
Pictures are different than a project. My kids know about death unfortunately, they have lost a few close relatives. I’m not scared of talking about or coloring pictures depicting death. I just feel like projects are more focused, and of all the Megillah, that’s not what I want my child to remember the most.

amother

Bergamot

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 5:12 pm

amother Aster wrote:

Im just going to comment that all the pictures that I've seen don't display gruesomely.
Its actually a tree with green leaves. And a string from the leaves to the top of Haman's hat.

Also, I read somewhere that they weren't actually killed by hanging. They were killed and then bodies hung to show everyone that they were dead. (Just a technical difference).
We get this from the fact that the Megillah talks about killing the 10 sons of haman and after that Esther gets permission to have them hanged.

I don't think anyone said the depictions themselves are gruesome, but hangings in general are gruesome and it's bizarre to turn it into a kid friendly art project.

patzer

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 5:13 pm

amother Aster wrote:

Yes, ten of Haman's sons were killed by the sword and their bodies were hanged publicly afterward. Haman himself was killed by hanging.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 5:23 pm

amother DarkPurple wrote:

Example, please?

"מעשה בני טובעים ואתם אומרים שירה is very much a Torah (shebeal peh) concept. This comment negates that."

"Sending home masks, groggers, paper megillahs and then a Haman on the tree project is very much celebrating it."

"Great, so I’ll go with בנפל אויביך אל תשמח instead."

"Why train them to focus on vengeance, rather than Mordechai, who was a true leader of Israel and someone to learn from?"

"We neither teach nor celebrate everything in all of Tanach to little kids."

Seems to me that many here are against celebrating this aspect of the Purim story

csstb

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 5:32 pm

I’m a little baffled on how my posts have been interpreted. I see no problem with any part of the Megillah. And I don’t see a problem with talking about Haman and the way he died. I DO see a problem with desensitizing small children to hanging corpses. From a developmental perspective, children will not fully comprehend it and what it means for that to happen to an enemy. There is little difference being happy at the death of an enemy or a friend.

Regarding the sources, I am unsure why either of the sources I quoted was inappropriate. In terms of the pasuk, its use in one midrash should not dictate its read every single time. And there is a centuries long tradition of the Yam Suf midrash as having ramifications for us. Like our avoiding Hallel Shalem at the end of Pesach.

I almost exclusively hear the word “woke” on this site and in conservative news publications. I’ve never heard it applied to some regular Jewish-themed discussion before this site. I truly wonder what its place is here.

amother

NeonYellow

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 5:34 pm

sushilover wrote:

Is it also disgusting when the kids come home with their makos projects pesach time?

Like hello, thousands of Egyptians died. They went a week with no water, dying from dehydration, surrounded by the smell of death and blood. And we have our 4 years olds celebrate the pain by bringing cups painted red.
There is so much more to focus on in the pesach story. Why do we have to flaunt the death and pain of the Egyptians?

I don't love the focus on makos either.

But not because of the death and pain of the Egyptians. But because they're taken out of context. The Torah focuses on they were warned to do teshuvah, they were warned to let the Yidden go, and they didn't listen.

The Medrash gives the details, but with an explanation for why each was an appropriate punishment that taught them a lesson.

Making it all about frogs is missing the point.

amother

DarkPurple

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 5:35 pm

amother Aquamarine wrote:

I don't agree with your interpretation of those posts.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 5:38 pm

csstb wrote:

I don't recall your posts talking about the exposure of children to a hanging corps....

The word "woke" is used to mean politically correct. People who feel it's not okay to teach children about haman's death because it's not nice to talk about the deaths of our enemies are considered woke/liberal. It's a leftist perspective coming into our world.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 5:39 pm

amother DarkPurple wrote:

I don't agree with your interpretation of those posts.

It sounds like you are not the only one.

No one in those posts mentioned that they don't like their child being exposed to the image of a hanging body... My understanding was that they think it's not nice to discuss the deaths of haman and his sons and that it's not right to celebrate their deaths.

I disagree.

ETA: How else can you interpret someone saying, "בנפל אויביך אל תשמח"? It literally means don't rejoice at your enemies downfall

amother

DarkPurple

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 5:40 pm

amother Aquamarine wrote:

Ugh, I so don't want to have this conversation, but I just have to say that the attitude of calling things woke/PC is a right wing pespective coming into our world from outside. I bet people who call everything woke/PC wouldn't spill makkos wine if they were around a few millennia ago.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 5:42 pm

amother DarkPurple wrote:

I'm not following the connection here... Why wouldn't we if it's minhag? People don't call PC for nothing. They use it when someone tries to avoid certain aspects of Torah because it doesn't fit into today's standard of correctness.

csstb

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 5:48 pm

amother Aquamarine wrote:

No one in those posts mentioned that they don't like their child being exposed to the image of a hanging body... My understanding was that they think it's not nice to discuss the deaths of haman and his sons and that it's not right to celebrate their deaths.

This was literally a post discussing a 3-D depiction of Haman’s corpse hanging on a tree as a kids’ project! Would I have brought those sources for a discussion on what adults should be talking about on Purim? No, unless I knew that I was speaking with particularly juvenile adults who take pleasure rejoicing in others’ pain. But that’s not the mentality I raised my kids with, nor is it the mentality that most people raise their kids with. But yes, for dealing with children, those sources are very much relevant.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 5:53 pm

csstb wrote:

To me, your posts sounded like it's offensive to create a 3D image of Haman on a tree, not that it's graphic for children. Not sure what place those psukim have in a conversation about the craft being graphic, however I do see why you would bring them if we are saying the craft is offensive.

Aren't we all adults on this forum? Seems like you were telling us not to rejoice in our enemies failure. Clearly I misunderstood. Either way, those psukim were taken out of context, so I still don't see why they are relevant to children at all unless you are teaching them we can be happy when Hashem bring our enemies down.

WonderIma

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:00 pm

csstb wrote:

They are not relevant, because you are misinterpreting them, as was pointed out above. When your position doesn't change despite finding out the the support for your position is inaccurate, that is an indication that it was never about the sources as much as it is about your feelings. Maybe it's worth considering where the source of those feelings are from and if they are consistent with our mesorah.

csstb

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:02 pm

amother Aquamarine wrote:

We have a moral tradition of not teaching our children to rejoice in other’s pain. It is grounded in Torah. Hence, the sources. Sure, an adult can have more nuance but this was not a post about adults. This was a post about whether young children should make 3-D representations of dead Haman on a tree. I did not teach my children to celebrate that image. I have never seen them celebrating that image, and I imagine one in particular would be extremely uncomfortable with that. They seem to celebrate Purim with true simcha and mitzvos nonetheless. And I imagine that’s what Hashem wants from them.