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-> Purim
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amother
Oxfordblue
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 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 7:03 pm
| amother Blueberry wrote: | Ok I was trying to be politically correct lol.
But it's not always true a single or childless woman, or someone with older kids is not necessarily exempt from mitzvos like tefillah and fasting..
The idea is that obviously woman have mitzvos but once she has children that takes priority. |
As a practical point, women with small children may not be able to fast on minor taaneisim or daven btzibbur, or learn Torah or have the the time to learn how to lein the megilla. And we have come full circle, perhaps now you understand why some women want to lein megilla.
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amother
Viola
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 7:12 pm
| amother Bluebell wrote: | | Ok. I believe that on Yom Kippur there should be alternating minyanim so both husband and wife can daven full tefilos while the other takes care of the kids. I believe shuls should be more accommodating to women. I believe that women should be encouraged to learn and pasken in areas that Halacha allows. Do you agree with all this? |
What an amazing idea. We would definitely daven in this shul, and my husband would support this.
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amother
Blueberry
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 7:47 pm
| amother Oxfordblue wrote: | | As a practical point, women with small children may not be able to fast on minor taaneisim or daven btzibbur, or learn Torah or have the the time to learn how to lein the megilla. And we have come full circle, perhaps now you understand why some women want to lein megilla. |
No I actually don't understand the connection.
Being serious...
You mean if someone has the time bec they're unmarried, or don't have small children they would want to learn megilah?
Eta: the part I take issue with is not the actual leinging or learning.. but when that takes priority over basic obligations and raising your family.
I think that's the problem with modern day feminism is that is has turned motherhood, for those who are blessed with children, into a demeaning and oppressive role. In reality it is the highest calling a woman can have.
If gd chooses a different path for someone, meaning no children for whatever reason, In life then .maybe He wants her to focus on growth in other areas...
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tichellady
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Wed, Mar 27 2024, 12:09 am
| amother Electricblue wrote: | I'm putting effort into trying to understand the other side's point of view and see where you are coming from.
In response I'm being told that my point of view is just looking to create problems where there aren't any and that I'm creating mountains out of a molehill.
I get it. You all think that our concerns for minhagim, whether it's about women leining or men lighting shabbos candles, is so meaningless that you can be completely dismissive and not even attempt to see our perspective. |
This thread isn’t about whether women can leyn or not. Different communities do what is right for their community in regards to that. You have no business telling me that my rabbi is wrong to have a woman’s reading in our shul. There are different halachic opinions and it’s rather accepted and not controversial in many communities. I found your reform men candle lighting analogy to be silly for many reasons.
I get that you are worried about change but just because something is the way it is doesn’t make it a minhag. This is a complicated halachic issue and not about your comfort level or what you are used to. I don’t think the fact that we don’t do something in a certain way makes it a minhag.
Also, even if you would argue that only having men read the Megillah is a minhag- which I don’t think is true/Preserving minhagim is a value but we have other values as well. We have a value system and there may be reasons why we allow something halacjiclally ok that was not done for cultural or social reasons that now makes sense to be done- like having Jewish schools for girls, or many chassidic practices ( at the time of their origin they were rather controversial and broke with tradition). If you want to start a spin-off about why you are anti any change and innovation, go ahead and do that. There is a balance and every community finds it in different places and that’s ok- we don’t all have to be the same
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tichellady
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Wed, Mar 27 2024, 12:32 am
| amother Blueberry wrote: | No I actually don't understand the connection.
Being serious...
You mean if someone has the time bec they're unmarried, or don't have small children they would want to learn megilah?
Eta: the part I take issue with is not the actual leinging or learning.. but when that takes priority over basic obligations and raising your family.
I think that's the problem with modern day feminism is that is has turned motherhood, for those who are blessed with children, into a demeaning and oppressive role. In reality it is the highest calling a woman can have.
If gd chooses a different path for someone, meaning no children for whatever reason, In life then .maybe He wants her to focus on growth in other areas... |
Are women who are mothers of small children not allowed to have interests or talents or hobbies outside of their children? What about careers, friendships, relationships? They must spend all their time and energy on parenting???That is what you are implying.
Furthermore, do you realize that for those of blessed to be mothers it’s not our whole lives that we have young children- maybe 7- 20 years for most people. This means for most of the years in our lives we are not mothers to young children.
You can’t say it’s the highest calling for a woman to be a mother and then acknowledge that GD doesn’t give all women children. We don’t know or pretend to know what is the highest calling . We all do our best with our talents and strengths and we can’t compare ourselves with anyone else.
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funkyfrummom
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Wed, Mar 27 2024, 1:07 am
| amother Oxfordblue wrote: | I would like to respond to many comments, but I would like to just say this before this thread gets locked-
I was the one who brought up tablescapes and tri color kugels (or somebody else brought it up and I continued...).
I did not mean in any way shape or form to disparage either of them. I'm sure the tablescapes are beautiful and the tri color kugels are yummy. It's just that I personally, don't see either of those things as particularly spiritual.
I wasn't trying to attack anybody, I was stating my opinion, just as you were stating yours. I am just trying to have a discussion about this... its something I think about a lot.
If you can change my mind... kol hakovod, you're more than welcome to.
And I don't lein nor do I plan to lein. I just think it's cool that women can do this and it works for them. I'm a big fan of doing what works for you!!! |
Tablescapes and tri color kugels are both examples of hiddur mitzva. They are ways to infuse Shabbos, Yom Tov, and simchos with beauty and thereby elevate feelings of joy. For many on this site, living life b'simcha is an important value. Also, FOOD and connection to others is such a Jewish thing. Yes, a Jewish spiritual thing.
Non-Jews have physical and spiritual... generally 2 separate things in most religions. But for Jews, one of our central purposes is to bring kedusha into the world...to materialize the spiritual within a material world.
I am sure there are plenty of women who make tricolor kugels and tablescapes as a creative outlet, nothing wrong with that, but both examples CAN be "particularly spiritual" practices, too. Sometimes the work is to elevate the most mundane things and to see their potential for spirituality. Just one perspective.
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amother
Foxglove
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Wed, Mar 27 2024, 1:20 am
| funkyfrummom wrote: | Tablescapes and tri color kugels are both examples of hiddur mitzva. They are ways to infuse Shabbos, Yom Tov, and simchos with beauty and thereby elevate feelings of joy. For many on this site, living life b'simcha is an important value. Also, FOOD and connection to others is such a Jewish thing. Yes, a Jewish spiritual thing.
Non-Jews have physical and spiritual... generally 2 separate things in most religions. But for Jews, one of our central purposes is to bring kedusha into the world...to materialize the spiritual within a material world.
I am sure there are plenty of women who make tricolor kugels and tablescapes as a creative outlet, nothing wrong with that, but both examples CAN be "particularly spiritual" practices, too. Sometimes the work is to elevate the most mundane things and to see their potential for spirituality. Just one perspective. |
That's fine. But it was questioned whether it's okay for a woman with small children to prioritize learning to lain, when she has so many "more important" responsibilities. That same question could also be asked about women who prioritize tablescapes. Each person has their priorities, even when it comes to spiritual pursuits. If something is important enough to someone and she prioritizes it and *makes the time for it* good for her.
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amother
Electricblue
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Wed, Mar 27 2024, 8:20 am
| tichellady wrote: | This thread isn’t about whether women can leyn or not. Different communities do what is right for their community in regards to that. You have no business telling me that my rabbi is wrong to have a woman’s reading in our shul. There are different halachic opinions and it’s rather accepted and not controversial in many communities. I found your reform men candle lighting analogy to be silly for many reasons.
I get that you are worried about change but just because something is the way it is doesn’t make it a minhag. This is a complicated halachic issue and not about your comfort level or what you are used to. I don’t think the fact that we don’t do something in a certain way makes it a minhag.
Also, even if you would argue that only having men read the Megillah is a minhag- which I don’t think is true/Preserving minhagim is a value but we have other values as well. We have a value system and there may be reasons why we allow something halacjiclally ok that was not done for cultural or social reasons that now makes sense to be done- like having Jewish schools for girls, or many chassidic practices ( at the time of their origin they were rather controversial and broke with tradition). If you want to start a spin-off about why you are anti any change and innovation, go ahead and do that. There is a balance and every community finds it in different places and that’s ok- we don’t all have to be the same |
To summarize your points, you say
A- I have no right saying your rabbi is wrong.
Since when?
I don't have to shut up every time a rabbi with a beard has an opinion, do I? There are countless threads disagreeing with rabbis, some of which I'm very vocal on. For example, the rabbis who said no pictures in magazines. I disagree with them for many reasons. Some of which by the way is because they break with the accepted practices before then which always did allow pictures of women until pretty recently.
Those conversations have gotten heated, but I was NEVER told by anyone on the other side that I have no right to say their rabbi is wrong.
B- you say this isn't a minhag, it's just something that was done on the past.
I strongly disagree- and I'm willing to bet that most rabbanim, and probably even rabbanim who allow leining- agree that this constitutes a minhag. This isn't a case of cutting the edges off the chicken because it turns out your great grandmother had a small pan.
Second, if you say it isn't a minhag at all while I say it is, this answers why we disagree and you can't see my perspective. It's not that I'm so- called disparaging the women here who hold with leining. If most of klal yosroel holds that this is a minhag going back thousands of years, and a minority hold that it isn't a minhag, then you can expect that we wouldn't approve of this change of minhag. The general tone of this thread is that anyone who doesn't approve is just insulting and demeaning the women who do want this.
What's wrong with me saying that my community holds that leining is a minhag and we don't agree with the ones who say it isn't? We can disagree on many things without being accused of bashing.
C- you say that even if it is a minhag, there are other values which trump minhagim.
True. That's why I didn't see anyone here being against women leining in extenuating circumstances.
We just don't think that it's a great thing in and of itself or for the sake of empowerment or just because it's not against halacha.
In summary, no one is stopping you from leining if you have rabbinical approval. Just don't expect us to agree or demand that we not voice our disagreement.
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amother
Electricblue
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Wed, Mar 27 2024, 8:32 am
| amother Foxglove wrote: | | That's fine. But it was questioned whether it's okay for a woman with small children to prioritize learning to lain, when she has so many "more important" responsibilities. That same question could also be asked about women who prioritize tablescapes. Each person has their priorities, even when it comes to spiritual pursuits. If something is important enough to someone and she prioritizes it and *makes the time for it* good for her. |
I agree with you.
What I don't agree with are the multiple posters who painted leining as holy and deep while more so called feminine pursuits such as making kugel were called trivial, unnecessary, and a waste of time.
What a sad way to view the world.
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amother
Oak
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Wed, Mar 27 2024, 9:28 am
| amother Blueberry wrote: | No I actually don't understand the connection.
Being serious...
You mean if someone has the time bec they're unmarried, or don't have small children they would want to learn megilah?
Eta: the part I take issue with is not the actual leinging or learning.. but when that takes priority over basic obligations and raising your family.
I think that's the problem with modern day feminism is that is has turned motherhood, for those who are blessed with children, into a demeaning and oppressive role. In reality it is the highest calling a woman can have.
If gd chooses a different path for someone, meaning no children for whatever reason, In life then .maybe He wants her to focus on growth in other areas... |
The highest calling a Jewish person (women and men) have is to serve Hashem. That's why we are here in this world.
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Aurora
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Wed, Mar 27 2024, 11:14 am
I haven't been able to respond individually, but here goes:
1. I am not very good at kugels or tablescapes, and I'm good at laining.
2. My father taught me to lain, and it is very special to me.
3. I like spending my Purim megillah reading with a group of women who all want to connect to the Megillah and are never obnoxiously drunk.
4. The tropp provide an extra layer of meaning to the text, so I feel I understand it better.
5. I find it especially meaningful that when a woman lains, I can hear Esther's words in a woman's voice.
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amother
OP
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Wed, Mar 27 2024, 12:46 pm
| amother OP wrote: | Because everything I always thought on this subject has been challenged on this thread.
So curious about this and would like to hear the source that says woman are not obligated in childcare. That's all.
Maybe because it's untrue? |
I find it very telling that noone has a source for this. Posters have said quite adamantly that this is untrue, as well as everything I've said on this thread, but when I ask for a source the silence is deafening.
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amother
Oxfordblue
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Wed, Mar 27 2024, 1:26 pm
| amother OP wrote: | | I find it very telling that noone has a source for this. Posters have said quite adamantly that this is untrue, as well as everything I've said on this thread, but when I ask for a source the silence is deafening. |
You can't post a negative source.
What is the source that it is not a mitzvah to go to the moon?
What's the source that women are obligated in having children/raising children? Find me the source.
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amother
OP
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Wed, Mar 27 2024, 1:28 pm
| amother Oxfordblue wrote: | You can't post a negative source.
What is the source that it is not a mitzvah to go to the moon?
What's the source that women are obligated in having children/raising children? Find me the source. |
C'mon!
Ask any Rav anywhere!
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amother
Stone
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Wed, Mar 27 2024, 1:30 pm
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amother
White
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Wed, Mar 27 2024, 1:45 pm
Women aren’t obligated to have children. The obligation to have children is for the man. Once a woman has the children , yes, she is obligated to raise them. I can’t cite the exact source, but it’s we’ll known.
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amother
Blueberry
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Wed, Mar 27 2024, 2:32 pm
| tichellady wrote: | Are women who are mothers of small children not allowed to have interests or talents or hobbies outside of their children? What about careers, friendships, relationships? They must spend all their time and energy on parenting???That is what you are implying.
Furthermore, do you realize that for those of blessed to be mothers it’s not our whole lives that we have young children- maybe 7- 20 years for most people. This means for most of the years in our lives we are not mothers to young children.
You can’t say it’s the highest calling for a woman to be a mother and then acknowledge that GD doesn’t give all women children. We don’t know or pretend to know what is the highest calling . We all do our best with our talents and strengths and we can’t compare ourselves with anyone else. |
you didnt understand what I was saying.
OBVIOUSLY there are many women without young kids.. for various different reasons. either they dont have or they're grown up etc.
my point was - that the thing I take issue with, is the whole concept that raising children is a lowly demeaning job and that modern day feminism is here to save the day and "liberate" women to be exactly like men.
so no, leining the megillah doesnt have to be problematic. but it will be, if that becomes the be all and end goal of a women to 'just do what men do' as a hashkafa.
like someone posted earlier she felt like men should rush or shorten their yom kippur davening so women could daven! thats messed up priorities.
if someone needs to be in shul to connect then go get yourself a babysitter but please dont make it about gender equality, social construct or whatever garbage social justice buzzword you picked up from secular feminism.
whoever doesnt believe that women are not only obligated but HONORED to take care of children - I am very sorry for your kids.
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shabbatiscoming
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Wed, Mar 27 2024, 5:38 pm
| amother OP wrote: | | I find it very telling that noone has a source for this. Posters have said quite adamantly that this is untrue, as well as everything I've said on this thread, but when I ask for a source the silence is deafening. |
Why would there be a source for what a woman is NOT obligated to do?
Thats not how it works.
Ive said this before, but Ill say it again, not everything in life needs a source.
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amother
Bluebell
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Wed, Mar 27 2024, 5:50 pm
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Source for women not having chiyuv to take care of children. Shulchan aruch even haezer 82.5.
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amother
Bluebell
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Wed, Mar 27 2024, 5:52 pm
אם לא רצתה האם שיהיו בניה עמה אחר שגמלתן אחד זכרים וא' נקבות הרשות בידה ונותנת אותם לאביהם או משלכת אותם לקהל אם אין להם אב והם מטפלים בהם אחד זכרים ואחד נקבות:
If the mother did not want her children to be with her after they were weaned, whether male or female, that is her prerogative, and she may give them to their father, or send them to the [care of] the community if they do not have a father, and the community raises them, whether male or female.
This is a copy of Halachos towards the end. I believe it’s 82.8
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