Tired of self-centered teens and young adults

amother

Marigold

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 12:00 pm

amother OP wrote:

I have a question for the people who say every generation complains about the younger generation (which is true, of course).

Imagine you’re me, a high school teacher in a BY with a good reputation. Imagine that you gave the first test of the school year, and beforehand you gave out a review sheet and went over it with the girls. Fair test, no surprises, no trick questions. Imagine that after the girls saw their marks, there was a long line of girls, over 2/3 of the class I KID YOU NOT, waiting to talk with you by break. And every single girl except two said some variation of “I worked so hard, I studied for hours, I deserve a better grade”!! And then ARGUED with you when you didn’t bump them up to the grade they “deserved”, saying you obviously didn’t teach it well enough if so many girls didn’t get an A, and walked away muttering under their breath when you didn’t cave in. Keep in mind most of these kids got in the B+ to A- range on the first test of the year.

Twenty years ago there were maybe two girls per class who would act like this in high school. Now it’s the majority. They will insist and argue and keep at it. They 100% believe they’re right and that they’re fighting injustice.

Imagine you’re me, and you remember the set, angry faces of certain girls who throughout the year, folded their arms and stared at you as they insisted that they deserved a better mark. Who treated you like dirt. AND THOSE GIRLS GOT INTO TOP SEMINARIES.

Would you be okay with this behavior and say it’s not a big deal?

It is so tiring.

I was in school 25 years ago, and yes, this sort of thing happened then, too, down to the lines and the arguing. And yes, it was always the girls who got the higher grades doing the arguing.
I think some people just forget what it’s like to be teens/young adults. For every example of entitled behavior posted on this thread, I think of just as obnoxious and entitled behavior from my generation when we were that age.

amother

Amber

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 12:01 pm

amother Marigold wrote:

I was in school 25 years ago, and yes, this sort of thing happened then, too, down to the lines and the arguing.
I think some people just forget what it’s like to be teens/young adults. For every example of entitled behavior posted on this thread, I think of just as obnoxious and entitled behavior from my generation when we were that age.

True but it seems to be more accepted nowadays, somehow. And almost like they think it's the right thing to do.

imamommy5

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 12:01 pm

amother OP wrote:

After having six girls go through the system I have to agree with the girls.

amother

Denim

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 12:06 pm

amother OP wrote:

Yes. And it is exhausting.

It is. They think they're entitled to good grades just for being enrolled in school.
But more exhausting for the teachers who cave to them. One of my daughter's teachers held an 8 hour zoom the night before her midterm and retaught everything. The girls talk straight through her class all year.

The teachers also have to be willing to set standards and hold them accountable.

amother

Marigold

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 12:07 pm

amother Amber wrote:

True but it seems to be more accepted nowadays, somehow. And almost like they think it's the right thing to do.

It was to the same degree 25 years ago. I don't see a difference.

For example, I remember a classmate literally screaming at my math teacher because she got a B instead of her usual A, that it was going to mess up her record etc. She was a normal girl (who is a teacher, in her 40s now, btw) who just got hysterical and over the top because she was so upset, she wasn't a chutzpahdik or rude student. I think she might have been one of our valedictorians a few years later iirc.
I remember those lines and girls arguing as though the fate of the world depended in those extra 3 points they thought they deserved.

(Jewish kids take excelling seriously, and also, they like to argue! Why do you think so many Jews end up as lawyers?)

amother

Razzmatazz

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 12:07 pm

I have a theory that good girls who loved school are the ones who typically become teachers
Meaning these things happened 20 years ago but the girls involved were not the ones becoming teachers.

My daughter is a real goody-goody who loves school, is a teacher's dream and plans to become a teacher.
I see her in 20 years saying the exact same thing that OP said.
The answer is that so much of this existed yet you didn't see it.

amother

Topaz

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 12:22 pm

amother Navyblue wrote:

I think this is a different issue than your OP.

As a mom of mostly boys, my go to comparison is girls high schools to boys, not today versus 20 years ago. Boys in yeshiva are encouraged, regularly and routinely as I can see, to argue and debate. Whether it's gemara or for a grade. I'm constantly shocked when I hear stories of how the boys argue with rebbeim, but this is encouraged. According to dh, it was always like this.

And for that matter, we can also talk about the general expected decorum in yeshivos versus girls schools. Girls are socialized to follow the rules, keep quiet and behave. Boys have different expectations. But maybe now it's starting to change for girls.

Personally, as a former goody goody, I think it's more beneficial for children to learn how to be assertive, question the rules, and respectfully question authority.

I really hope questioning authority never becomes a good thing.

of course there are people in 'power' who may be abusive or dangerous etc but in general the lack of respect for authority equals a complete decline in civilization.. and of course religion.

everything about yiddishkeit is about respecting elders and teachers and obviously parents.
even if they are wrong! ( I am not necesserily refering to abuse ask your LOR in that case)

it is never a good idea to encourage children to rebel against authority because that is a VERY sippery slope.

just look at the world today. (secular culture as well)

Comptroller

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 12:41 pm

amother OP wrote:

Well, if that it the case, here is what I would do

When correcting, I would "overlook" one mistake in each copy.

Once the queue forms, you tell the first girl: Oh, yes, maybe you are right! Let me have a look. Then you go through the copy thouroughly, discover the mistake you left standing, and grade one point down.

The queue will dissolve at the second or third downgrade.

Of course, you could insist and ask aloud: "Did I really miss so many mistakes? I think I need to regrade the paper." Ask the whole class to turn their papers in, give it back with one point down each.

amother

Amber

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 12:44 pm

Comptroller wrote:

Well, if that it the case, here is what I would do

When correcting, I would "overlook" one mistake in each copy.

Once the queue forms, you tell the first girl: Oh, yes, maybe you are right! Let me have a look. Then you go through the copy thouroughly, discover the mistake you left standing, and grade one point down.

The queue will dissolve at the second or third downgrade.

Of course, you could insist and aks aloud: "Did I really miss so many mistakes? I think I need to regrade the paper." Ask the whole class to turn their papers in, give it back with one point down each.

That's amazing! Love it! Very Happy

Aurora

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 2:38 pm

amother Topaz wrote:

I feel like a lot of the neviim were davka the ones refusing to bow to authority because they had greater respect for the One Above.

Separate, can anyone identify with this?

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

-- Socrates

There really is nothing new under the sun.

amother

Charcoal

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 2:42 pm

amother Topaz wrote:

People in power are only good when they can be questioned! Otherwise you have a dictatorship, and dictators are not good.

amother

Amber

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 3:54 pm

amother Charcoal wrote:

People in power are only good when they can be questioned! Otherwise you have a dictatorship, and dictators are not good.

That's not the same thing as brazenly questioning, correcting, or debating parents or older family members twice one's age in public. They're not political dictators, they're elders with more life experience who the Torah says to respect, and for simply that reason.

Also, there's a difference between questioning someone one on one in private with a genuine sense of humility and respect, and between feeling that you have the right to brazenly override an elder relative without shame or diplomacy.

amother

Midnight

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 4:01 pm

amother Amber wrote:

My sister is around your age, and she thinks she's awesome too. So awesome that she gets to tell her parents and elders exactly what's what, because they clearly know nothing and she knows so much more than them.

I acted like that as a teenager. Teenaged brains are constructed to think their parents are dumb so that they individuate. But at 24, there’s something wrong if your sister is still like that. My friends and I are really not like that. We’re very respectful of our parents.

Having a child fully cemented my understanding that my parents know so much more than me. Is your sister a mother?

amother

Amber

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 4:03 pm

amother Midnight wrote:

She has one baby. IDK, I guess it's a personality thing. The funny part is she's in a field where she advises people. Could be she just likes telling people what to do, no matter their relative age to her.